The Official DSI/Sequential Forum

Next New DSI Instrument

Re: Next New DSI Instrument
« Reply #20 on: December 30, 2015, 01:11:50 PM »
I agree with you on many of the points, Razmo.

The idea of having some kind of user loadable sample playback with pre/post filter choice/mix in a voice architecture would be very cool. Same with percussion features like fast envelope times, envelope shaping and attack/decay mode. However I would rather like this to be part of a general voice architecture like seen on Tempest that can be use for multiple purposes. That studio multi-tool.

My guess is that the component price and board size of the Pro 2 filters are way higher than a Mopho module so doubt such a module would be affordable. Also I like the idea of extension modules but doubt it will be cheaper than the current module and polychain concept in DSI modules.

So how about a desktop module with percussion and sample features? ;)

Having it in form of a multi-timbral module without any keys on allows for more compact size and free choice of controller to use such expressive workhorses like QuNeo or QuNexus. Such controllers allows for more degrees of freedom than the standard row of black and white on/off switches.

I must say that I like your idea of analog/hybrid percussion synthesizers operated from a pad controller. My guess is that you will soon regret that you sold your Pulse 2 and possibly MBase11/MBrane11!
« Last Edit: December 30, 2015, 01:14:06 PM by dslsynth »
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Razmo

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Re: Next New DSI Instrument
« Reply #21 on: January 01, 2016, 04:08:04 AM »
I agree with you on many of the points, Razmo.

The idea of having some kind of user loadable sample playback with pre/post filter choice/mix in a voice architecture would be very cool. Same with percussion features like fast envelope times, envelope shaping and attack/decay mode. However I would rather like this to be part of a general voice architecture like seen on Tempest that can be use for multiple purposes. That studio multi-tool.

My guess is that the component price and board size of the Pro 2 filters are way higher than a Mopho module so doubt such a module would be affordable. Also I like the idea of extension modules but doubt it will be cheaper than the current module and polychain concept in DSI modules.

So how about a desktop module with percussion and sample features? ;)

Having it in form of a multi-timbral module without any keys on allows for more compact size and free choice of controller to use such expressive workhorses like QuNeo or QuNexus. Such controllers allows for more degrees of freedom than the standard row of black and white on/off switches.

I must say that I like your idea of analog/hybrid percussion synthesizers operated from a pad controller. My guess is that you will soon regret that you sold your Pulse 2 and possibly MBase11/MBrane11!

I agree that some of the idears I have may be either too circumstancial, or expensive, but it will have to be specificaly tailoreed for percussion synthesis, otherwise you could just use a normal synth like Evolver or even Mopho for this, but those are not optimal in my opinion.

The main idear was to have a single drumvoice in a single unit really... Personaly I'd be happy even with a device that had no physical controls at all, so that all control and editing would be via an editor, but I don't think that many others would want it that simple, so I'd let the interface be up to DSI.

I would not want to give up on the dual filters to be honest, and the flexible routing because that will be a crucial part of the sound design options.. Maybe I'd even say that I'd like something new there, like four individual filters that could be used at the same time... a LP, HP and BP, individualy routable to the oscillators... If you wanted to forget about routing the oscilltors into filters, I'd be happy with three SEM type multimode filters, one hardwired for each oscillator... the point is, that I see the three oscillators as three distinct sound parts of a single drumsound, and each would need to be sculpted differently... I'd also like the engine to have dedicated envelopes for each oscillator's/filters parameters... throw in an analog distortion at the end... maybe even one for each oscillator, and finish it off with the P6 FX section, but with new FX tailored for percussion sound, and make it possible to control the routing of the FX as either serial or parallel, so that it can be used both as ambience (echo and reverb), but also insert FX (distortion, compressor, EQ etc.).

You could even diminish the engine, by only having one analog oscillator, and one multi-functional digital oscillator, that can work as both the ordinary Pro2 oscillator, but be switched into using samples... that may even be smarter... especialy if you decided to leave out the analog oscillator and made the front end 100% digital... in that case two such digital oscillators could give some nice options (but I know DSLSYNTH, that you'll be grinding your teeth at leaving the analog oscillator out :D ). In my opinion though, an analog oscillator may not really be needed, if the digital ones have been tailored for consistency etc... in fact I think I'll prefer that to any unstable analog oscillator.

The Character sectioncould also be expanded... I can see many fun digital mangling parameters being added on an oscillator basis, in addition to the mod matrix audio rate modulation.

More or less, it could be a synth as well... would not mind, as long as the engine is made for individual control of the oscillators... maybe the Pro2 architecture is even close to what I could use for this... maybe I'm just still dreaming of the Pro2 engine in a small desktop device...

Re: Next New DSI Instrument
« Reply #22 on: January 01, 2016, 05:29:34 AM »
I would not want to give up on the dual filters to be honest, and the flexible routing because that will be a crucial part of the sound design options.. Maybe I'd even say that I'd like something new there, like four individual filters that could be used at the same time... a LP, HP and BP, individualy routable to the oscillators...

Sounds like simpler voices and layers could do the same. One filter per voice but the ability to stack multiple voices. More distributed sound design of cause but its doable. Like your idea of a next generation percussion voice and user samples. Would like to see that happen. Only trouble with the two Pro 2 filters is that $1K voice price.
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Razmo

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Re: Next New DSI Instrument
« Reply #23 on: January 01, 2016, 06:04:55 AM »
I would not want to give up on the dual filters to be honest, and the flexible routing because that will be a crucial part of the sound design options.. Maybe I'd even say that I'd like something new there, like four individual filters that could be used at the same time... a LP, HP and BP, individualy routable to the oscillators...

Sounds like simpler voices and layers could do the same. One filter per voice but the ability to stack multiple voices. More distributed sound design of cause but its doable. Like your idea of a next generation percussion voice and user samples. Would like to see that happen. Only trouble with the two Pro 2 filters is that $1K voice price.

The main point of the architecture is, that to create, say; a snare... you'd need to create the skin tone of at least two oscillators, and preferably have an analog LPF to shape it off... but you'd need a separate VCA to sculpt it's length as well separately from the noise part, that will be made from another oscillator, and this "layer" has to be capable of running thru a HPF with resonance to shape the noise-part... it must also have it's own VCA since this part usualy is longer than the skin part...

Like the above, each and every typpical percussion sound is usualy build up of independant part, that require some flexibility in routing options etc. that few synth engines give you currently... this is why a sound needs to be build up of several parts... if you made a single voice architecture, where you have to sort of like have 2-3 full voices for each sound it'll be expensive... but how ould you circumvent this? ... You could leave some of the sculpting to digital control... say; create the individual filters for each oscillator as digital ones.... for example a multimode digital filter for each oscillator... lets just say three of those, with each it's own multimode filter, Character section, Amplifier etc. all made in digital... then fire those three together thru an analog LPF and HPF, both with resonance, and then into an analog distortion, and lastly that FX engine at the end.

That would allow you to pair the LPF/HPF into a BPF...

But this architecture is pretty close to what the Pro2 is anyway... each oscillator has it's own digital VCA... but it could be expanded upon to make the oscillators even more separate, like with the idears I gave above...

Re: Next New DSI Instrument
« Reply #24 on: January 01, 2016, 07:13:13 AM »
Do you need more than two parts?

Could a digital filter or noise color parameter with a pre/post filter setting do the job?

I do get the idea for multiple parts of the sound and are just wondering what the best DSI-like voice architecture being able to express such sounds would look like in order to keep the expressiveness high and the price as low as possible. Not to mention that there are many other sounds possible in such an architecture and one wants to leave room for a certain degree of expressiveness here too. Speaking of percussion sounds I am really curious what digital effects the original Dave/Roger drum voice had. Could be interesting to see in a new voice type.

For instance by inserting the digital oscillators in post filter mode together with the delay mix-in point would greatly save D/A converters as these are needed anyway. A modulation slot could route the VCA envelope value to the noise level or the noise level could be controlled with a separate envelope.
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Razmo

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Re: Next New DSI Instrument
« Reply #25 on: January 02, 2016, 03:03:39 AM »
Do you need more than two parts?

Could a digital filter or noise color parameter with a pre/post filter setting do the job?

I do get the idea for multiple parts of the sound and are just wondering what the best DSI-like voice architecture being able to express such sounds would look like in order to keep the expressiveness high and the price as low as possible. Not to mention that there are many other sounds possible in such an architecture and one wants to leave room for a certain degree of expressiveness here too. Speaking of percussion sounds I am really curious what digital effects the original Dave/Roger drum voice had. Could be interesting to see in a new voice type.

For instance by inserting the digital oscillators in post filter mode together with the delay mix-in point would greatly save D/A converters as these are needed anyway. A modulation slot could route the VCA envelope value to the noise level or the noise level could be controlled with a separate envelope.

More than two parts?... that depends on what you have avaiable as oscillatos I guess... a simple skin hit tone, will require at least two detuned oscillators alone, and would need a third to introduce the noise part... so if the supersaw technique was expanded to allow very large detunings, then one oscillator could probably serve as the skin part.

But then look at how the old TR-808 did it's hihats... a combi of 6 inharmonicaly detuned pulse waveforms is used in that... this would require a superpulse waveform with capabilities of detuning in a random fashion.

There are many forms of drum synthesis, and I'm sure you would not be able to catch them all, and that there are other ways to create convinving hihats without using 6 pulse oscillators, you'd just have to make the engine as flexible as possible, but I think that the Pro2 architecture looks pretty good for this allready, and only need a few twists to get better.

Regarding noise parts... to be able to give the noise a good sound, you'd need resonanse... the resonance is alfa omega here to make the noise part cut thru... without resonance, no claps is possible really, or good snares that does not sound like simple hipass filtered noise... on the TR-808, you even had the noise filtered in two separate paths to allow for more thump in the transient.

So it's probably hard to create a voie architecture that will allow for everything... but that's not really needed either... as long as the most basic sound sculptning possibilities are there.... the more colkours the oscillators themselves can do, the better, the more individual they are, the better, you need at least a multimode filter with resonance and an analog distortion is essential for kick drums as well as other sounds... the sample oscillators are needed for realistic cymbals as these are practicaly impossible to do with synthesis.

Re: Next New DSI Instrument
« Reply #26 on: January 02, 2016, 03:49:15 PM »
I see what you mean, Razmo! So two analog filters would indeed be useful. So would layers be as that is another way to get two filters but only when needed though voice management would be more complex.

Two filters with a Pro 2 style cross fader between them and sample playback oscillators? Sounds tasty! Wonder if a Curtis chip filter and a discrete state variable filter would be a good idea? Could be more compact and possibly cheaper than the Pro 2 filters.

Would love to see a general purpose voice architecture with a few extra features for better percussion sounds rather than specialized voices. Unless of cause its next generation TR-808 style voices like the ones provided by Jomox and Elektron et al but with much more thought out integration of analog and digital parts.

Speaking of claps on the Evolver one could use the single step sequence trick to get separate filter settings for each of the two filters. Could be interesting to see how well that performs in practice.
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Re: Next New DSI Instrument
« Reply #27 on: January 03, 2016, 06:06:49 PM »
I would like to see something with Fractal Waveforms . . .

Re: Next New DSI Instrument
« Reply #28 on: January 09, 2016, 03:51:48 PM »
Since this might end up being an endless discussion not bound to a particular NAMM event, I've turned this topic into a sticky topic in case DSI/Sequential are looking for inspiration.  ;D
Ableton Live 9 Suite & Push 2 (macOS) | Arturia BeatStep Pro | DSI Pro 2 | KMI QuNexus | Korg Volca Beats | Moog MF-104M Analog Delay | Moog Minitaur | Moog Model 15 App | Moog Sub 37 Tribute Edition | Sequential Prophet-6

Re: Next New DSI Instrument
« Reply #29 on: January 09, 2016, 04:07:15 PM »
I've turned this topic into a sticky topic in case DSI/Sequential are looking for inspiration.  ;D

Would be lovely if DSI can feel just a little inspired by our dreams but of cause we have to listen to DSI too.

. o O ( :o )
« Last Edit: January 09, 2016, 04:13:16 PM by dslsynth »
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Re: Next New DSI Instrument
« Reply #30 on: January 09, 2016, 06:51:08 PM »
 It would be interesting to see a synthesizer that had the option to run the raw waveforms through an analog phaser or distortion before it went to the analog filters and even the envelopes.  That way it would retain a punchy attack with harmonically rich variations.   

chysn

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Re: Next New DSI Instrument
« Reply #31 on: January 09, 2016, 08:12:06 PM »
This is the place to dream about what you'd like to see DSI make next.

I want DSI to respond directly to the Sub37 with a 37-key monosynth with architecture similar to the Prophet 6, in the $1500 USD range. That would be fun, and I'd probably start saving up right away.
DSI: DSM03; previously: Mopho Keyboard, Desktop Mopho, Evolver, DSM01
Hardware: Eurorack, Arturia MicroBrute
Software: macOS, Ableton, MuseScore2
Modular Grid: https://www.modulargrid.net/e/racks/view/354385
GitHub: https://github.com/chysn

Re: Next New DSI Instrument
« Reply #32 on: January 09, 2016, 08:25:12 PM »
This is the place to dream about what you'd like to see DSI make next.

I want DSI to respond directly to the Sub37 with a 37-key monosynth with architecture similar to the Prophet 6, in the $1500 USD range. That would be fun, and I'd probably start saving up right away.

That's quite possible if there's going to be a monophonic little brother of the Prophet-6. In a way, I always perceived the Prophet-6 to be a brilliant response to the Sub 37, just in the form of a polyphonic synth. Conceptually or philosophically both are pretty close - at least with regard to the immediacy both offer.
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chysn

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Re: Next New DSI Instrument
« Reply #33 on: January 10, 2016, 03:23:24 AM »
I want DSI to respond directly to the Sub37 with a 37-key monosynth with architecture similar to the Prophet 6, in the $1500 USD range. That would be fun, and I'd probably start saving up right away.

That's quite possible if there's going to be a monophonic little brother of the Prophet-6. In a way, I always perceived the Prophet-6 to be a brilliant response to the Sub 37, just in the form of a polyphonic synth. Conceptually or philosophically both are pretty close - at least with regard to the immediacy both offer.

Well said, that makes sense. Given DSI's past pattern, a new monosynth seems natural; but it's possible that DSI/Sequential has decided that polyphony is their ground, and they may demur on the monosynth market. Dave Smith himself said at one point* that anybody can do an inexpensive monosynth with a decent sound, but polyphony is hard.

So I would totally understand if we don't see a monosynth from DSI. If that's the case, I'm still perfectly happy with my Little Phatty/Evolver combo.

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* Sorry, I couldn't find the video link.
DSI: DSM03; previously: Mopho Keyboard, Desktop Mopho, Evolver, DSM01
Hardware: Eurorack, Arturia MicroBrute
Software: macOS, Ableton, MuseScore2
Modular Grid: https://www.modulargrid.net/e/racks/view/354385
GitHub: https://github.com/chysn

Re: Next New DSI Instrument
« Reply #34 on: January 10, 2016, 07:38:43 AM »
There have to be future Sequential instruments, and a small monophonic/duophonic/paraphonic would be the most natural choice at this point.  Or perhaps something resembling the Tetra.  If Dave goes in the opposite direction - bigger - then he'll very quickly surpass the P12 as the most expensive and the flagship of the line.  That's not impossible, but I think it's unlikely.  I say we'll see a small Sequential instrument sooner or later.

Re: Next New DSI Instrument
« Reply #35 on: January 10, 2016, 11:06:56 AM »
In such a case they hope they make it a Prophet-2 instead in order to allow for filters in stereo configuration. Hopefully with more modulation features and layers!

. o O ( same old rant )
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Re: Next New DSI Instrument
« Reply #36 on: January 10, 2016, 11:34:33 AM »
I wonder if Dave will ever design an instrument larger than the Prophet 12.

Re: Next New DSI Instrument
« Reply #37 on: January 10, 2016, 11:37:26 AM »
You know what? I really think the good old Rhodes keyboards need some competition: Prophet 16.

Of cause that requires discrete electronics voices and a complex voice to make it interesting not to mention heavy!

;)
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Re: Next New DSI Instrument
« Reply #38 on: January 10, 2016, 12:10:09 PM »
You know what? I really think the good old Rhodes keyboards need some competition: Prophet 16.

Of cause that requires discrete electronics voices and a complex voice to make it interesting not to mention heavy!

;)

You mean an instrument with a Rhodes keyboard?
Ableton Live 9 Suite & Push 2 (macOS) | Arturia BeatStep Pro | DSI Pro 2 | KMI QuNexus | Korg Volca Beats | Moog MF-104M Analog Delay | Moog Minitaur | Moog Model 15 App | Moog Sub 37 Tribute Edition | Sequential Prophet-6

Re: Next New DSI Instrument
« Reply #39 on: January 10, 2016, 12:23:47 PM »
Or something like this?

« Last Edit: January 10, 2016, 12:25:21 PM by Paul Dither »
Ableton Live 9 Suite & Push 2 (macOS) | Arturia BeatStep Pro | DSI Pro 2 | KMI QuNexus | Korg Volca Beats | Moog MF-104M Analog Delay | Moog Minitaur | Moog Model 15 App | Moog Sub 37 Tribute Edition | Sequential Prophet-6