The Official DSI/Sequential Forum

What Will Follow the Prophet '08, and When?

What Will Follow the Prophet '08, and When?
« on: October 18, 2016, 12:52:42 PM »
I've often thought about starting a thread considering the questions, "How much longer will the Prophet '08 be in production, and will another similar instrument take its place?"  But of course, such a discussion is bound to be full of blind guessing, since we have no information on either question.  Oh well...here's the thread anyway!

I would love to see what I'm sure we will not see - a Prophet '08 Mark II.  Just add a few features - a high pass filter, onboard delay, and longer envelope times - and you'd have the superb instrument on the simpler side of synthesis.  But again, I certainly don't expect we'll see this, so what will follow the P'08?  Will it simply be dropped without a clear replacement?  I mean, the argument can be made that the Poly Evolver Keyboard was discontinued only when the Prophet 12 appeared.  The latter is something of a replacement for the former.  So, will it be the case also with the P'08?  I do hope so, that DSI will present us with a new full-sized analog poly synth in the simpler old school tradition, one that fulfills the needs of Prophet '08 users who would be interested in upgrading. 

Please, DSI don't merely retire the instrument and leave us with the Prophet 6.  As good as it is, it's not nearly enough.  If you must retire the Prophet '08, then replace it with something better in the very same tradition.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2016, 01:18:12 PM by Sacred Synthesis »

Re: What Will Follow the Prophet '08, and When?
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2016, 01:52:07 PM »
Nothing but bleak nothingness will follow that is going to shatter our mere existence at its core.

Seriously though: Not sure. This is a tough one.

There are a few things we know, and those are that the whole market situation shifted significantly ever since the Evolvers and the Prophet '08 have been introduced, and that we now have a company like Behringer apparently having a huge success with a 12-voice DCO synth - even before it's been delivered to the numerous buyers who pre-ordered one - that can be purchased for a grand only. That may put things in perspective a bit, meaning that whatever could be a follow-up product wouldn't be targeted at the same audience that Behringer has in mind. But even a different price range wouldn't be enough, since the DeepMind 12 is quite loaded with features.

So from that, I would assume that DSI won't plan on developing another DCO synth just to make things more affordable. Especially since the only thing that the DeepMind 12 is missing in comparison is/are more available waveforms and more LFOs (if I haven't overlooked anything). The additional octave doesn't interest the mass market. And then there's still the price DSI couldn't compete with. With that in mind, I'd say that a relatively affordable DCO-based polysynth is pretty much off the table, as it seems to make no sense in business terms.

A full-blown best-of-it-all analog VCO polysynth (think P-6 meets OB-6 with at least 8 voices and the some more features) on the other hand would easily hit a much higher price point than anything that's ever been released by DSI. And it may also be too much of the same, especially after the past two years' focus on classic analog instruments. So I'd assume that's rather unlikely too.

With those two extremes excluded, I remain clueless. One may assume that the Prophet-6 and the OB-6 will ultimately be what's left of the analog line-up. I don't consider that to be unlikely. But who knows? I have no numbers, so it's hard to estimate whether it would make sense to keep the Prophet '08 around for another year or two. And then, we still have no idea what's up next. All in all, though, I'm highly skeptical of a direct descendant of the Prophet '08 for all of the above-mentioned reasons.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2016, 02:32:38 PM by Paul Dither »
Ableton Live 9 Suite & Push 2 (macOS) | Arturia BeatStep Pro | DSI Pro 2 | KMI QuNexus | Korg Volca Beats | Moog MF-104M Analog Delay | Moog Minitaur | Moog Model 15 App | Moog Sub 37 Tribute Edition | Sequential Prophet-6

Re: What Will Follow the Prophet '08, and When?
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2016, 02:40:38 PM »
I have no numbers, so it's hard to estimate whether it would make sense to keep the Prophet '08 around for another year or two.

The only thing I'm sure of is that each time I've questioned DSI about the Prophet '08's future, I've been told the instrument is still a big seller.  Although the Deepmind 12 may somewhat affect this, I doubt it will be a Prophet '08 killer.

Re: What Will Follow the Prophet '08, and When?
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2016, 03:13:01 PM »
I have no numbers, so it's hard to estimate whether it would make sense to keep the Prophet '08 around for another year or two.

The only thing I'm sure of is that each time I've questioned DSI about the Prophet '08's future, I've been told the instrument is still a big seller.  Although the Deepmind 12 may somewhat affect this, I doubt it will be a Prophet '08 killer.

We'll have to wait and see until the DeepMind 12 is finally out I guess. I'm not sure whether the rumors about the high retailer orders are true (one major US retailer alone - Sweetwater? - is said to have ordered 30,000 units). But as of now, Behringer is already asking the crowd for drum machine ideas due to the huge DM12 success (coincidently after the announcement of Arturia's DrumBrute). I guess it all depends on how aggressive they'd like to continue to undermine the current market. Either way, even if "only" 30,000 DeepMinds should sell in the end, I'd assume that this would be a higher number than all of the Prophet '08 sales, keyboard and module combined. Either way, I wouldn't underestimate the impact of Behringer here.

Plus: In order for DSI to release a competitive product in the realm of DCO-based polysynths it would basically take a Prophet '08 on steroids (meaning: more polyphony, refined envelopes, added effects, and an expanded modulation matrix that can affect the effects too) at roughly the price of a Mopho x4. And for some reason I can't see that happening.

The only way to keep on doing what DSI are doing would be to cater to a more exclusive audience (as in: not mass market and not entry level priced items), and with that, all the reasoning behind using DCOs becomes pretty much irrelevant.

Also: Don't forget that DSI had pretty much no competition for years when it came to polysynths. There was simply no other company that offered an alternative or a rather affordable analog polysynth. That changed with the DM12. And who knows what Korg is up to in the future? They might as well release a bigger synth based on the Minilogue - not super likely, but still possible. And for those who don't care too much about analog vs digital there's also the System-8 now, which is perceived as being instantly gratifying by lots of buyers, and will be of great use in the live context. So there is definitely more competition around now that needs to be considered.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2016, 03:21:59 PM by Paul Dither »
Ableton Live 9 Suite & Push 2 (macOS) | Arturia BeatStep Pro | DSI Pro 2 | KMI QuNexus | Korg Volca Beats | Moog MF-104M Analog Delay | Moog Minitaur | Moog Model 15 App | Moog Sub 37 Tribute Edition | Sequential Prophet-6

Re: What Will Follow the Prophet '08, and When?
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2016, 04:51:21 PM »
now have a company like Behringer apparently having a huge success with a 12-voice DCO synth - even before it's been delivered to the numerous buyers who pre-ordered one

snickers
Dave S: Prophet-600 Gligli, Prophet 2000, Pro-2, AS-1 | Tom O: SEM, Matrix-1000 | Dave R: Emax SE, UltraProteus, Proteus 2000, ESI-32, XL-7 | Ensoniq TS-10 | Modal 002R-8, CraftSynth | Waldorf Pulse 2, Streichfett | Roland Kiwi-106S, Kiwi-3P, Kiwi-8P, MKS-30 | Korg Volca Beats

Re: What Will Follow the Prophet '08, and When?
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2016, 05:34:20 PM »
Well, I still love my Prophet 08 and there is nothing out there that will make anyone give up their OBXa/OB8's or Jupiter 8's. Only toys that are immediately sold on on eBay after the novelty factor has worn off.
I do hope Dave Smith does not go the cheap route. A decent 8 voice poly is worth paying for as long it is still hands on and has a big enough keyboard (in my opinion). :-)

Re: What Will Follow the Prophet '08, and When?
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2016, 07:55:47 PM »
Either way, I wouldn't underestimate the impact of Behringer here.

Aw, c'mon now.  I'm trying to be optimistic with a bad situation. ;D

My last resort is Dave's personal philosophy of making whatever he wants to make.  Fun, fun, fun.  Hopefully, that will work in favor of us Prophet '08 fans.

Seriously, though, don't underestimate the importance to many musicians of the extra keyboard octave.  It's important all by itself, but especially regarding a feature like keyboard split.  A split four-octave keyboard is an unnaturally crowded space for making good music.  One more octave makes an immense difference.  Based on what I've read on the forums, there are quite a few keyboardists who are real tired of the 49-note craze.  Four-octaves may suit a mono synth, or even a poly synth of limited voices, but a 12-voice poly?  Some one over at Behringer got a bad ice cube.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2016, 09:18:06 PM by Sacred Synthesis »

Re: What Will Follow the Prophet '08, and When?
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2016, 09:29:27 PM »
My mistake.  The Deepmind 12 can do neither splits nor layers.  Two marks against it, as far as I'm concerned.

A 12-voice mono-timbral poly synth with only 49 keys.  Hmmm, I'm trying to make sense of that.  What need is there for all the voices?

Anyway, back to the proper theme here: What Will Follow the Prophet '08, and When?  Will we be left with only three choices - the Prophet 12, the Prophet-6, or hanging on to our discontinued Prophet '08s? 
« Last Edit: October 18, 2016, 10:28:40 PM by Sacred Synthesis »

Re: What Will Follow the Prophet '08, and When?
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2016, 11:24:58 PM »
A bit weird it does't do layers especially as you only have a saw wave on one of the oscillators. So it seems there is no way of having two saws!

eXode

  • **
  • 209
Re: What Will Follow the Prophet '08, and When?
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2016, 12:15:57 AM »
The Deep Mind 12 does have various unison modes, including dual, which is a form of layering.

However I agree that the choice of only having a strange PWM on the second oscillator is a bit strange. In fact I believe that the second OSC is basically a suped up Sub Oct more or less.

To move on to DSI, I'm not sure what could follow at this point. It seems that Dave might have abandoned the current DCO line and I'd be surprised if he continues to use it at this point. Also it will be interesting to see if Dave will use the new CEM3340 VCO in a future product (as you may or may not be aware of Curtis have decided to manufacture the CEM3340 again). Sadly I'm in doubt if we'll ever see a product of the same price/performance as the Prophet 08 again, I do hope I'm wrong though.

eXode

  • **
  • 209
Re: What Will Follow the Prophet '08, and When?
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2016, 12:19:40 AM »
Also, seeing as the LPF in the Eurorack feedback module is actually digital, I can't help to think about whether Dave will try his hand at a full VA/DSP based hardware product.

Re: What Will Follow the Prophet '08, and When?
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2016, 01:44:41 AM »
now have a company like Behringer apparently having a huge success with a 12-voice DCO synth - even before it's been delivered to the numerous buyers who pre-ordered one

snickers

I know, it's funny, isn't it? But once a retailer commited, it's not really Behringer's problem anymore how many of those units will actually sell quickly.
Ableton Live 9 Suite & Push 2 (macOS) | Arturia BeatStep Pro | DSI Pro 2 | KMI QuNexus | Korg Volca Beats | Moog MF-104M Analog Delay | Moog Minitaur | Moog Model 15 App | Moog Sub 37 Tribute Edition | Sequential Prophet-6

Re: What Will Follow the Prophet '08, and When?
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2016, 01:47:00 AM »
Either way, I wouldn't underestimate the impact of Behringer here.

Aw, c'mon now.  I'm trying to be optimistic with a bad situation. ;D

My last resort is Dave's personal philosophy of making whatever he wants to make.  Fun, fun, fun.  Hopefully, that will work in favor of us Prophet '08 fans.

Seriously, though, don't underestimate the importance to many musicians of the extra keyboard octave.  It's important all by itself, but especially regarding a feature like keyboard split.  A split four-octave keyboard is an unnaturally crowded space for making good music.  One more octave makes an immense difference.  Based on what I've read on the forums, there are quite a few keyboardists who are real tired of the 49-note craze.  Four-octaves may suit a mono synth, or even a poly synth of limited voices, but a 12-voice poly?  Some one over at Behringer got a bad ice cube.

I think especially the both of us don't have to argue about the DM12's shortcomings. It's just that I think the average customer will look at the Behringer synth and expect other manufacturers to do a similar thing, at least with regard to pricing.
Ableton Live 9 Suite & Push 2 (macOS) | Arturia BeatStep Pro | DSI Pro 2 | KMI QuNexus | Korg Volca Beats | Moog MF-104M Analog Delay | Moog Minitaur | Moog Model 15 App | Moog Sub 37 Tribute Edition | Sequential Prophet-6

Re: What Will Follow the Prophet '08, and When?
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2016, 01:48:07 AM »
I do hope Dave Smith does not go the cheap route.

That won't happen. With the current market situation this is less likely than ever before.
Ableton Live 9 Suite & Push 2 (macOS) | Arturia BeatStep Pro | DSI Pro 2 | KMI QuNexus | Korg Volca Beats | Moog MF-104M Analog Delay | Moog Minitaur | Moog Model 15 App | Moog Sub 37 Tribute Edition | Sequential Prophet-6

Re: What Will Follow the Prophet '08, and When?
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2016, 01:52:31 AM »
To move on to DSI, I'm not sure what could follow at this point. It seems that Dave might have abandoned the current DCO line and I'd be surprised if he continues to use it at this point. Also it will be interesting to see if Dave will use the new CEM3340 VCO in a future product (as you may or may not be aware of Curtis have decided to manufacture the CEM3340 again). Sadly I'm in doubt if we'll ever see a product of the same price/performance as the Prophet 08 again, I do hope I'm wrong though.

I though about the CEM3340s too. So far I think only Doepfer uses a bunch of them. Not sure about DSI. It was stated earlier this year that they've not been involved in pushing forward the current production.
Ableton Live 9 Suite & Push 2 (macOS) | Arturia BeatStep Pro | DSI Pro 2 | KMI QuNexus | Korg Volca Beats | Moog MF-104M Analog Delay | Moog Minitaur | Moog Model 15 App | Moog Sub 37 Tribute Edition | Sequential Prophet-6

eXode

  • **
  • 209
Re: What Will Follow the Prophet '08, and When?
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2016, 02:25:38 AM »
To move on to DSI, I'm not sure what could follow at this point. It seems that Dave might have abandoned the current DCO line and I'd be surprised if he continues to use it at this point. Also it will be interesting to see if Dave will use the new CEM3340 VCO in a future product (as you may or may not be aware of Curtis have decided to manufacture the CEM3340 again). Sadly I'm in doubt if we'll ever see a product of the same price/performance as the Prophet 08 again, I do hope I'm wrong though.

I though about the CEM3340s too. So far I think only Doepfer uses a bunch of them. Not sure about DSI. It was stated earlier this year that they've not been involved in pushing forward the current production.

A bit O/T perhaps but Doepfer actually only used the old stock of CEM3340's and discontinued that oscillator before the new production began. Don't know if they have taken up production again though.

Afaik Curtis decided to revive the 3340's in part because another company were trying to acquire the rights if I recall correctly.

Re: What Will Follow the Prophet '08, and When?
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2016, 03:00:37 AM »
To move on to DSI, I'm not sure what could follow at this point. It seems that Dave might have abandoned the current DCO line and I'd be surprised if he continues to use it at this point. Also it will be interesting to see if Dave will use the new CEM3340 VCO in a future product (as you may or may not be aware of Curtis have decided to manufacture the CEM3340 again). Sadly I'm in doubt if we'll ever see a product of the same price/performance as the Prophet 08 again, I do hope I'm wrong though.

I though about the CEM3340s too. So far I think only Doepfer uses a bunch of them. Not sure about DSI. It was stated earlier this year that they've not been involved in pushing forward the current production.

A bit O/T perhaps but Doepfer actually only used the old stock of CEM3340's and discontinued that oscillator before the new production began. Don't know if they have taken up production again though.

Afaik Curtis decided to revive the 3340's in part because another company were trying to acquire the rights if I recall correctly.

No, Doepfer was actually pushing for the new production. Here's why: http://www.doepfer.de/A1112.htm
Ableton Live 9 Suite & Push 2 (macOS) | Arturia BeatStep Pro | DSI Pro 2 | KMI QuNexus | Korg Volca Beats | Moog MF-104M Analog Delay | Moog Minitaur | Moog Model 15 App | Moog Sub 37 Tribute Edition | Sequential Prophet-6

eXode

  • **
  • 209
Re: What Will Follow the Prophet '08, and When?
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2016, 03:32:10 AM »
To move on to DSI, I'm not sure what could follow at this point. It seems that Dave might have abandoned the current DCO line and I'd be surprised if he continues to use it at this point. Also it will be interesting to see if Dave will use the new CEM3340 VCO in a future product (as you may or may not be aware of Curtis have decided to manufacture the CEM3340 again). Sadly I'm in doubt if we'll ever see a product of the same price/performance as the Prophet 08 again, I do hope I'm wrong though.

I though about the CEM3340s too. So far I think only Doepfer uses a bunch of them. Not sure about DSI. It was stated earlier this year that they've not been involved in pushing forward the current production.

A bit O/T perhaps but Doepfer actually only used the old stock of CEM3340's and discontinued that oscillator before the new production began. Don't know if they have taken up production again though.

Afaik Curtis decided to revive the 3340's in part because another company were trying to acquire the rights if I recall correctly.

No, Doepfer was actually pushing for the new production. Here's why: http://www.doepfer.de/A1112.htm

Ah, cool. I didn't know that.

Anyhow. Like I said earlier, I wonder if Dave has considered something completely digital with regards to the Prophet 12/Pro 2, and now the digital filter featured in the feedback module.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2016, 03:34:58 AM by eXode »

Re: What Will Follow the Prophet '08, and When?
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2016, 03:35:29 AM »
To move on to DSI, I'm not sure what could follow at this point. It seems that Dave might have abandoned the current DCO line and I'd be surprised if he continues to use it at this point. Also it will be interesting to see if Dave will use the new CEM3340 VCO in a future product (as you may or may not be aware of Curtis have decided to manufacture the CEM3340 again). Sadly I'm in doubt if we'll ever see a product of the same price/performance as the Prophet 08 again, I do hope I'm wrong though.

I though about the CEM3340s too. So far I think only Doepfer uses a bunch of them. Not sure about DSI. It was stated earlier this year that they've not been involved in pushing forward the current production.

A bit O/T perhaps but Doepfer actually only used the old stock of CEM3340's and discontinued that oscillator before the new production began. Don't know if they have taken up production again though.

Afaik Curtis decided to revive the 3340's in part because another company were trying to acquire the rights if I recall correctly.

No, Doepfer was actually pushing for the new production. Here's why: http://www.doepfer.de/A1112.htm

Ah, cool. I didn't know that.

Anyhow. Like I said earlier, I wonder if Dave has considered something completely digital with regards to the Prophet 12/Pro 2, and now the digital filter featured in the feedback module.

That has already been denied by DSI on here. So no fully digital synth coming.
Ableton Live 9 Suite & Push 2 (macOS) | Arturia BeatStep Pro | DSI Pro 2 | KMI QuNexus | Korg Volca Beats | Moog MF-104M Analog Delay | Moog Minitaur | Moog Model 15 App | Moog Sub 37 Tribute Edition | Sequential Prophet-6

eXode

  • **
  • 209
Re: What Will Follow the Prophet '08, and When?
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2016, 03:39:36 AM »
That has already been denied by DSI on here. So no fully digital synth coming.

Gotcha, thanks!