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The Prophet '08 Among Prophets

Re: The Prophet '08 Among Prophets
« Reply #340 on: April 20, 2017, 02:22:31 AM »
Moinmoin,

Your post, Sacred Synthesis, reflects exactly my personal reception (and sort of analysis) of Your recordings. Your interest in "sacred and classical" music makes You use sophisticated polyphonics. "Sophisticated" is not meant however in terms of modern Jazz, but that thing deliberately used by the composers of classical european music.
BTW: Characterising myself as a modern Jazz afficionado (and musician), Johann Sebastian Bach is definitely one of my favourite musicians of all times. Back to sound programming...
Although slop may be used in orchestral sounds, it has to be handled - at least in my personal opinion - with care: The typical 70's string machines as e.g. (ARP) Solina sound good in their own right, but neither are real string sounds nor can be used as such (in the way You described e.g. reed sounds). One of the main reasons to my ears is: slop!
This normally results in too much swirling and may even change dignity into ridiculousness, which may or may not be wanted...

Slop in my opinion is heavily needed and used by musicians striving for typical lead sounds. This mostly means monophonic lines, even if sometimes supported by "some other note". If needed at all, harmonic complexity will be achieved by contrast between the lead line and the fellow musicians. Used like this, slop in many cases will make the sound become more prevalent, which of course is a good thing for lead lines.

At least this is just the opinion of

Martin




Re: The Prophet '08 Among Prophets
« Reply #341 on: April 20, 2017, 06:29:07 AM »
Yes, I'd agree with your statements about the use of Slop.  It certainly has its uses in the world of contemporary music and soloing, but not within my type of music - among other reasons, because I'm never trying to emulate an old analog synthesizer with unstable oscillators.  I couldn't get far enough away from the sound of unstable oscillators!

I've many times tried to incorporate Slop into my sounds, but even the least amount causes the opposite effect I'm after.  For example, perhaps the most obviously electronic-sounding tuning of two oscillators is heard when the two are very closely tuned, so that the beating has almost stopped.  The beating then sounds as a slow twisting phase - not in the least bit smooth or warm, but exceedingly electronic-sounding.  Even when using a setting of "1," Slop will eventually move your oscillator tuning of "3" to "5" to a "1," thus creating that most electronic-sounding effect.  This has ruined a few otherwise decent organ patch recordings I've made.

This doesn't mean I can't ever use a second oscillator tuned to a "1" setting.  No, I do so all the time; that's my usual setting for monophonic patches.  But I often lower the volume of the second oscillator so that the beating is softened and the tone sounds more natural.  My object is to find the middle ground in which no sound is static - since the acoustical environment always contributes some effect - but neither is the sound overly modulated, especially in a way that draws undue attention to the modulation.  This is one reason, by the way, that parameter increments on a synthesizer need to be ever-so-slight.  For example, the LFO Amount on the Poly Evolver's third envelope, even when set to "1," is far too deep for a gentle delayed vibrato.  The Prophet '08 is much better.  This is one reason I find the P'08 to serve as an excellent monophonic synthesizer: it's ability to provide subtle settings and slight increments.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2017, 05:21:44 PM by Sacred Synthesis »

Re: The Prophet '08 Among Prophets
« Reply #342 on: June 17, 2017, 05:01:00 PM »
When I listen to the simple VCO sound of the something like a OB-X, like in this video, I can't help wishing that I could get such a full, alive sound. Why can't someone develop an effect to give us a sound like that?

Instead of using Slop, I've been playing around with the following settings in the Mod matrix and fine tuning, using a 12dB filter and attaining a "CS-80" or "OB-X" style Vangelis patch with long attack and delay/release times, and low sustain values. (Starting from a basic patch, hold Program, and +/Yes at the same time) You could use either Pulse waveform set to 60-70 or sawtooth for the oscillators, with the mix at around 64 (in order to get that beating sound) both set to the same note (OSC1 and OSC2 set to C3 or C2, etc):

Mod Source:            KeyNumber
Mod Destination:     OSC1Freq
Mod Depth:             1! (Sounds like a chorused/old piano at the higher registers if tuned more than this!)

Fine tuning OSC1:   Between -30 and -20

Now, depending on the register you are playing in, to make the "beating" faster or slower, play around with the fine tuning of OSC1 from -40 to -20. The great thing about the Prophet 08 is the accessibility of the controls, so mess around with the filter settings and ENV amount controls to get more harmonic bite. Just a little tweaking and there we have the Vangelis Blade-Runner sound. That's it! I have a Lexicon so I add a touch of the ol' chorus and reverb to it. The idea for this came from watching a video on the Korg Minilogue and thinking, "I could do the same thing on my Prophet 08!"

Cheers!
« Last Edit: June 17, 2017, 05:33:45 PM by wimichae »
Check my Youtube channel for incremental updates of my music!

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC93WBj5aJ2oBTtUxItdVonw

Re: Prophet '08 among Prophets
« Reply #343 on: June 23, 2017, 09:20:12 AM »
Third, I set the modulation wheel to control the filter cut off frequency for dynamic changes, and I use this a lot throughout the music.  Fourth - and here's the catch - the patch has to have a deep stereo field.  Since I use a P'08 Keyboard in conjunction with a P'08 Module, I dump the patch from the keyboard to the module and then pan each instrument to opposite sides at the mixer.  This is essential to the overall sound and gives it a spacious depth that a mono signal could only envy.

I agree with Sacred Synthesis on these two points. Typically when I am designing a sound on the Prophet '08, I will involve both timbres. The left hand will often be set up for the bass sounds utilizing the last octave or so. This is so I can play an octave apart and get both timbres, typically playing the root of whatever chord I am in. I often find myself controlling frequency cutoff with the mod wheel. There are times when my bass part is set up in unison with the mod wheel also controlling pan spread, with 0 being when the mod wheel is turned down and the filter closed, and about 50 with the filter open when the mod wheel is up. I get pretty massive bass sounds this way!

After designing a patch, I find myself desiring a wide stereo field as well. While I don't have two Prophets, I achieve this utilizing pan spread. Typically, I will set up a slow triangle LFO free running, and the amount set to zero. Then, using the mod matrix, I set the modulation source as either the mod wheel for dynamic changes I control, or I set up envelope 1 (Filter envelope) or envelope 3 as my modulation source. With patches where the attack and decay is slow, I set up the filter envelope with a moderate amount to give it a swirling effect. For sounds with a snappy attack and decay with a moderate amount of sustain, I set up envelope 3 with some delay to allow the sound to have the attack, and then sort of swirl.

I also discovered how to obtain the sound of a stereo delay without a bucket brigade delay pedal. This works best on bell-like, piano-like, or plucked instrument sounds with a quick attack and decay on the filter envelope with little sustain. First, I set up my main bell/piano/plucked instrument sound, and set LFO 1 to a sawtooth wave, set to low pass frequency and I turn on either key sync or I use timing sync set up fast or slow depending on how quick I want the initial echo to be. I will set the depth to determine the brightness of my delay. At this point I adjust the release time on the amplifier envelope to control the delay time. Then, I set up another LFO with pan spread as the destination, depth controlling the wideness of my stereo field, and the timing sync as twice LFO 1. So, if LFO 1 frequency was 1 step, LFO 2 frequency would be 2 steps, if LFO 1 frequency was an eighth note step, LFO 2 frequency would be a quarter note step. Add a little reverb to it, and it is a perfect delay!

The Prophet 08 is such a good instrument for teaching subtractive analog synthesis, I find myself finding new jewels every day!  ;D ;D
Check my Youtube channel for incremental updates of my music!

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC93WBj5aJ2oBTtUxItdVonw

Re: The Prophet '08 Among Prophets
« Reply #344 on: June 23, 2017, 01:56:05 PM »
Oh yes, I almost forgot on the stereo delay without a delay pedal, make sure to select a sawtooth shape for LFO 1 modulating the filter for the delay sound, and select a SQUARE wave for LFO 2 at twice the frequency. Otherwise it will sound off. Originally I got this idea from inside synthesis on youtube and from reverse engineering Program 27 "Delay<MW>EarlRef," but I believe the manuals for newer DSI equipment have a similar procedure in there.
Check my Youtube channel for incremental updates of my music!

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC93WBj5aJ2oBTtUxItdVonw

Re: The Prophet '08 Among Prophets
« Reply #345 on: June 23, 2017, 04:52:48 PM »
So there are two ways I know of to inject some variation into the rock solid frequencies of the oscillators: use an LFO or use the modulation matrix. The advantage of using the LFO is that modulation slots are kind of valuable -- you only have four (I wish we had 16 like the Prophet 12!). But I haven't been able to get good results from using the Random LFO. Mephistofeles says that the rate is best between 70-100 IIRC, but I still hear the oscillators burbling.

I was experimenting with the injection of random noise modifying Oscillator frequency to create a flute patch. This idea came from looking through the old MS-20 settings examples manual. Thank goodness Korg keeps all the manuals for their equipment as downloadable PDFs! I used a triangle wave and a square wave (or a Pulse Width of 40-60, experimentation is best!) for my oscillators with mix set at around 64. You can experiment with different settings of the pulse width and mix to get a more reedy sound or a more round sound. The flute timbre is obtained with a fast attack (2-6), quick decay and release (so the sound is the same if you strike the keys or hold the keys) and a moderate sustain (above 50) on both the filter and the amplifier. Experiment with keyboard tracking, filter envelope velocity, and low pass filter cut off until you find a sound that suits your taste, and that's it for the body of the flute sound. I made my patch a unison patch with global settings "Unison mode" set to "one voice" so I would not play more than one flute sound at a time. I played around with different "unison assign" settings until I found "last retrig" and I think this is best for how a recorder or penny whistle sounds in real life.

For the "chuff" at the beginning of the sound, I set up Envelope 3 with zero attack, a fast decay and release (set to the same times), zero sustain, with a moderate amount of envelope depth, and the destination as Mod 1. I also used a moderate amount of velocity in order to make the flute sound more intense when you strike the keys harder, to emulate blowing on the flute harder. In the 1st slot of the Mod Matrix, I have the source set as noise and the destination set as OSCALLFREQ (all oscillator frequencies) with the amount set at 0. This will make the patch sound chuff and then sustain with no noise in it. I also added a little vibrato by routing a fast (60-75) triangle shaped LFO 1 through OSCALLFREQ setting the amount at about 5-10. You could set the amount of the vibrato LFO to zero and using the mod matrix to set up either pressure or mod wheel with destination as the vibrato LFO amount with the amount as 5-10.

I still have not found a way to make it "squeak" in the same way a pennywhistle will if you blow too hard at the initial attack, but I'm still experimenting. I tried setting pressure with destination as OSCfreqall up one octave, but that just sounds too odd. Happy synthing!
Check my Youtube channel for incremental updates of my music!

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC93WBj5aJ2oBTtUxItdVonw

Re: The Prophet '08 Among Prophets
« Reply #346 on: August 12, 2017, 03:11:50 PM »
One thing I've learned from emulating the stereo spread of the Poly Evolver on the Prophet '08 is that, having heard it, there's now no turning back to a mono sound.  Whatever instrument I intend to use, it must have a parallel module version available to combine with the keyboard version.  Period.  That's an expensive requirement, but absolutely worth it.  This allows for the Prophet '08, the Prophet 12, the Prophet-6, the OB-6, and hopefully in the near future, the Rev2 as well.  Unfortunately, it means the Pro 2 is out.  I so wish DSI had made a Pro 2 Module because, now that I've learned the P12 has a beautiful sound, I'm sure the Pro 2 would fulfill my quest for the ideal monophonic synthesizer.  But no, stereo is supreme.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2017, 03:50:20 PM by Sacred Synthesis »

Re: The Prophet '08 Among Prophets
« Reply #347 on: August 28, 2017, 11:18:45 AM »
Whenever I program my Prophet '08 or Tetra, in the final steps I almost always add a little bit of keyboard note modulation to my LFO's. I have found the LFO can respond in a similar manner as "cross mod" on an OB6 or "polymod" on the Prophet 6. Because the Prophet 08 has 4 LFO's per note, each one can have a different rate determined by the key that is struck. This always adds flavor to my final patches! If it's Oscillator tuning, a lazy slow triangle filter in the lower registers to a quick LFO in the upper registers, a delay created that has different settings depending on the key that is hit, I find myself reaching for the mod section and setting:

MOD (1-4) Source: Key Number, Destination: (LFO 1-4 Freq), Amount: Whatever sounds best!

I like to use the LFO to create a delay in much the same manner as the bouncing stereo delay I described above, only varying the LFO's frequency with the key that is hit. Let me give you an example of what I mean. I create bell-like FM sounds with audio mod, with the filter set to 4-pole mode, and audio mod at 127, osc mix set to 127, and osc 2 shape to off. I will occasionally set OSC2 to a much higher tuning, and to a square or triangle wave to give that initial percussive ringing at the attack, set up envelope 3 destination as OSC Mix, adjusting the decay and resonance to pretty snappy, and balancing ENV3 amount to give me that initial snappy-clicky attack. If I am setting up a plucked instrument, I will sometimes set ENV3s destination as noise level to emulate the randomness that comes from plucking a string. It just depends on the sound I am looking for. I set OSC1 shape to a triangle wave to give us the FM filter sound. Then turn resonance to 127 and generally I experiment with different OSC1 frequency tunings, filter cutoff, and key amount settings. I adjust the filter and amplifier envelopes as necessary. When I have a good bell or plucked instrument sound, I make LFO 1 act as a delay by setting LFO1s destination as LOW PASS and amount as similar to the Filter envelope amount so it sounds like the bell is being struck multiple times, or the instrument is being plucked at different rates. Here, I will adjust the Amplifier release time to give me long or short delays.

Now, I will setup the following: MOD1 Source: Key Number, Destination: LFO1 Freq. I will set the amount to something that sounds like rapid fire on the higher registers, as if it is a little hand held bell is being rung, and slow on lower registers to act as if a very large bell is being rung. It physically takes longer for the pendulum to hit each side of the bell! I might have to balance the LFO 1 Frequency with the MOD1 amount to find some happy medium so it is not too slow nor too quick in all the registers. I find that if I play the keyboard carefully, it will create a sound like a santur! If I am looking for that true santur sound, I will set up ENV3s destination as LFO1s Frequency, and adjust either the attack or the decay/release to an appropriate setting so as to emulate the mallet hitting the strings fast and then slow, or slow and then fast! I will then play around with the velocity on ENV3 to make it so when the key is really struck fast, the percussive sound will be rapid fire, and when it is hit slow, the sound rings out slowly. So, we have three things that are altering LFO1s frequencies, the key that is played, ENV3 and how hard the key is struck! Wow!

DSI truly made an impressive synthesizer with the Prophet 08. There are so many things you can do with 32 independent LFOs and 4 assignable, 4 fixed modulation slots, I am afraid I haven't even scratched the surface of the modulation possibilities! I am jealous when I think of those with the Prophet rev 2 and 8 assignable, 4 fixed mod slots! I know that breath control is a mod slot, but I dont have a breath controller. Happy synthing! ; )
Check my Youtube channel for incremental updates of my music!

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC93WBj5aJ2oBTtUxItdVonw

Re: The Prophet '08 Among Prophets
« Reply #348 on: August 28, 2017, 12:28:27 PM »
I've been cruising around the interwebs, reading up on Prophet 08 programming while waiting for my new Rev 2 to be shipped to me. Just wanted to say that this thread is great! I can't believe a group of people got 18 pages in, talking about a synth, ON THE INTERNET, without all of the craziness that that sort of thing usually brings with it. Apparently I've been reading the wrong forums haha!
I've been lusting after an 08 for almost a decade now and am really psyched that it's finally happening for me. This will be my first DSI instrument. The wealth of discussion on achieving subtle movement in the oscillators is very intriguing to me. I am looking forward to exploring these in depth! I'll make sure to report back if I come up with anything interesting. Thanks for all the tips!

Re: The Prophet '08 Among Prophets
« Reply #349 on: August 28, 2017, 12:34:35 PM »
If there's one thing traditional synthesis teaches you with its many limitations - and the Prophet '08 is a classic example of this - it's that there's no such thing as limitation.  More precisely, the only type that poses a problem is a limitation of talent or effort.  An instrument that provides only the basics of sound design nevertheless offers a whole universe of musical potential, if only one will work long and hard at it.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2017, 05:24:04 PM by Sacred Synthesis »

dsetto

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Re: The Prophet '08 Among Prophets
« Reply #350 on: August 31, 2017, 11:45:41 PM »
"+1" on last 3 posts.

Re: The Prophet '08 Among Prophets
« Reply #351 on: September 04, 2017, 11:30:24 AM »
One thing I've learned from emulating the stereo spread of the Poly Evolver on the Prophet '08 is that, having heard it, there's now no turning back to a mono sound.  Whatever instrument I intend to use, it must have a parallel module version available to combine with the keyboard version.  Period.  That's an expensive requirement, but absolutely worth it.  This allows for the Prophet '08, the Prophet 12, the Prophet-6, the OB-6, and hopefully in the near future, the Rev2 as well.

Well you got your wish! A Prophet REV2 with a module! Are you going to invest in the 8 voice or the 16 voice now?
Check my Youtube channel for incremental updates of my music!

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC93WBj5aJ2oBTtUxItdVonw

Re: The Prophet '08 Among Prophets
« Reply #352 on: September 04, 2017, 02:06:11 PM »
Well you got your wish! A Prophet REV2 with a module! Are you going to invest in the 8 voice or the 16 voice now?

Yes, I did indeed get my wish.  I will probably go for a 16-voice keyboard/module pair, and an additional 8-voice keyboard.  Together with a Prophet 12 keyboard/module pair, I should be all set for years to come.  But it may take some time.

Re: The Prophet '08 Among Prophets
« Reply #353 on: September 11, 2017, 10:24:00 AM »
After spending my first few days with my Rev 2, I am basically in love with it. It is a really wonderful instrument! I stumbled across this old thread, which links some things that would be very much of interest to me. Unfortunately I can't get any of the links to work. Does anyone have any ideas or recommendations to be able to read this info? While we're at it, any other tips and tricks, programming resources, etc. beyond what has been covered in this thread already would be awesome. Thanks!
http://dsiforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2117#top

Re: The Prophet '08 Among Prophets
« Reply #354 on: September 11, 2017, 10:28:23 AM »
Yes, that's our old forum.  You can't see the links unless you're registered.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2017, 11:55:08 AM by Sacred Synthesis »

Re: The Prophet '08 Among Prophets
« Reply #355 on: September 11, 2017, 11:08:42 AM »
Yes, that's our old forum.  You can't see the links unless your registered.

I did register but every time I click one of those links I get a page saying the connection timed out.

Re: The Prophet '08 Among Prophets
« Reply #356 on: September 11, 2017, 11:56:26 AM »
Maybe it's been abandoned?  The moderator hasn't updated the site for years.

Re: The Prophet '08 Among Prophets
« Reply #357 on: September 11, 2017, 12:55:01 PM »
Maybe it's been abandoned?  The moderator hasn't updated the site for years.

Yeah it seems that way unfortunately. Maybe I'll just start a Tips and Tricks thread for the Rev 2...

Re: The Prophet '08 Among Prophets
« Reply #358 on: September 11, 2017, 02:04:44 PM »
Good idea.

Re: The Prophet '08 Among Prophets
« Reply #359 on: September 15, 2017, 08:34:43 PM »
I know this is an old thread, but I'm late to the party having recently acquiring a REV2.
It's excellent - love it! :)
However I have to disagree with your statement that the Prophet 08 produces the best string sound of all the Prophets.
I haven't owned all the Prophets, but I do now own two and the Prophet 12 makes a lush, warm string sound that cannot be equalled by the REV2.
Don't get me wrong I love the REV2 and you're absolutely right in your assertion that it makes some very nice string sounds, but if you did an A/B comparison between the two synths on string sounds, the Prophet 12 would come out on top.
In fact as much as I love the REV2 (and I really do), it's purchase has only helped confirm how great a synth the Prophet 12 really is.
The sliders, the numeric keypad, the bank select buttons, the pgm up, pgm down buttons, the bigger, better OLED display and yes...even the illuminated pitch bend & Mod wheels, all just add a dimension to it that the REV2 doesn't have.
Let's not forget the 4 oscillators, extra wave shapes, analogue distortion and delays too! :)
This sounds like I'm trashing the REV2 now, I'm really not - it's absolutely ace, but the Prophet 12 is still DSI's 'Daddy' IMO.
I know you're looking at getting a Prophet 12 too and I have to say in combination the REV2 and Prophet 12 are magic - you won't be disappointed.
Incidentally a string pad sound I created on the Prophet 12 can be heard in the little video I did here...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzqN7jdJAOY