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Prophet 12 Choir Patch

Prophet 12 Choir Patch
« on: February 11, 2018, 01:11:59 PM »
For the one month I spent with a borrowed Prophet 12 last summer, I had only so much success designing a fairly realistic choir patch.  On the other hand, The Poly Evolver Keyboard produce an excellent choir sound.  As I consider which instrument to buy next, I'm re-assessing the P12 and wondering whether or not it could replace an eight-voice PEK.  Has anybody designed an excellent P12 choir patch?  Audio samples?

My Prophet 12 choir patch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZVA7TfI3nE

My Poly Evolver Keyboard choir patches:
https://youtu.be/pN904q28eQw?t=6m9s
« Last Edit: February 11, 2018, 01:13:52 PM by Sacred Synthesis »

Re: Prophet 12 Choir Patch
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2018, 11:42:38 PM »
Hi

I've designed a choir sound I put in this demo (the third one, starting at 1'55). Be aware that there's no FX and I haven't used your techniques of stereo recording (so I can do sounds if you wanna :)

https://soundcloud.com/thedisease/prophet-12-old-school-sounds-part-3

Re: Prophet 12 Choir Patch
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2018, 08:31:27 AM »
Thanks, Mr. Kay.  Those were excellent patches in general, including the choir sound, but not quite what I'm looking for.  It lacks that distinctive throaty quality that comes partly from the filter, but just as much from the waveshape itself.  The Evolver has several of these, and they make or break the sound.  Either an instrument has them, or it doesn't.

My impression of the Prophet 12 is the same as it was last summer.  For my purposes - and very surprisingly - it serves better as an analog synthesizer, rather than as a digital wavetable type.  Hence, it's much more in competition with the Prophet '08/Rev2 than the Poly Evolver.  The PEK still strikes me as having the digital edge.

Choir patches, anybody else?
« Last Edit: February 12, 2018, 09:40:15 AM by Sacred Synthesis »

Re: Prophet 12 Choir Patch
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2018, 08:50:22 AM »
Thanks, Mr. Kay.  Those were excellent patches in general, including the choir sound, but not quite what I'm looking for.  It lacks that distinctive throaty quality that comes partly from the filter, but perhaps even more from the waveshape itself.  The Evolver has several of these, and they make or break the sound.  Either an instrument has them, or it doesn't.

I'd say that's a safe bet, if you can identify the waves in question that are missing from the Prophet-12 for your application.
Sequential / DSI / Pioneer stuff: Prophet-12 desktop, Pro-2, AS-1, Prophet-600 Gligli, Prophet 2000

Re: Prophet 12 Choir Patch
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2018, 09:26:06 AM »
I'm obviously not able to make a P12/PEK side-by-side comparison.  But you're right, it does come down to the simple fact of either having or lacking the right waveshapes.  However, the P12 has more sound-shaping resources, so I'm still hoping these can compensate. 

The Evolver offers waveshapes with these short descriptions:

#17: Oohh
#18: Eehh
#40: Aahh Fem
#41: Aahh Hom
#42: Aahh Bass
#43: Reg Vox
#44: VOCAL 1 (Detune oscs using either wave to bring out the vocal)
#45: VOCAL 2 (Detune oscs using either wave to bring out the vocal)
#46: Hi Aahh

That's a hearty selection of waveshapes for designing various vocal sounds, which is why the Poly Evolver/Prophet VS pair makes an especially fine source for this tonal category.  I'd even say these two instruments surpass the Behringer VC340 Vocoder and the Roland Vocoder Plus VP-330 on which it's based.  The Roland never especially impressed me with its choir sound, and seemed to require much reverb and preferably a full mix of other instruments as well in order to seem at all convincing.

I'm still holding out for the Prophet 12, if anybody can offer a choir patch audio sample.  If not, then in my case, a P12 needs the support of a PEK, which is a very valuable bit of information to have gained.

Roland Vocoder Plus:
https://youtu.be/zkKm7VydYfU?t=11s

Prophet VS:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUqZvhO_TeI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNkVy0Nh8Gk

PEK:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIN0sthfksg

Emulator:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BM_S7DOn5A
« Last Edit: February 12, 2018, 10:48:40 AM by Sacred Synthesis »

Re: Prophet 12 Choir Patch
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2018, 01:03:30 PM »
Hmmm, I wonder if the Korg Prologue can produce a decent choir patch.  Anybody know?

Re: Prophet 12 Choir Patch
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2018, 12:25:23 AM »
Thanks, Mr. Kay.  Those were excellent patches in general, including the choir sound, but not quite what I'm looking for.  It lacks that distinctive throaty quality that comes partly from the filter, but just as much from the waveshape itself.  The Evolver has several of these, and they make or break the sound.  Either an instrument has them, or it doesn't.

Well... I was actually trying to reproduce a Simple Minds sound and during years, my classic patches were often sawtooh or sines and filter full open  :P

But to get close to the PEK/VS tablewaves on the P'12, it's necessary to dig, I guess mixing tablewaves and using sligth decimations, not easy to say, 'never touched a VS and a PEK twice in my life in a store.

Re: Prophet 12 Choir Patch
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2018, 05:58:57 AM »
Is it just me, or is a synthesized choir emulation not one of the most standard synthesizer patches, right along with strings, brass, organ, ethereal pads, and other basic sounds?  I'm surprised this isn't a simple issue to resolve.  It's like asking Rev2 owners if the instrument can produce pulse width modulation, and seemingly no one knowing for certain.  I've asked this question before with the same resultant crickets.  So, because the choir sound is a fairly simple one to design and requires only standard synthesis elements, starting with the quintessential waveshape, I'm going to conclude that the only DSI synthesizer that can produce an excellent choir patch is the Poly Evolver.  Do any of you P12 owners disagree? 

At least in my case, this is a decisive piece of information.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 06:03:49 AM by Sacred Synthesis »

Re: Prophet 12 Choir Patch
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2018, 11:05:16 AM »
I haven't got a chance to try that yet Sacred Synthesis.  The P12 is still new to me but I'm confident (and as the other gentleman suggested)  that by altering the P12's digital shapes slightly and blending with the other oscillators something good will come about for that classic choir sound.   You are probably correct about the PEK being a more direct instrument for achieving this sound however. 

Unfortunately I've never been that good at making choirs though I like making voice sounds.  That led me to buy a Roland VP8 canned choir a few years ago, which I got tired of very quickly.  So back to the synth pathway.    In my most recent endeavor was on the PEK using my own voice as a wave shape.  That produced decent results. 

Come to think of it, I think Pro2 has a decent choir voice on one of the presets.  If I'm correct about that, then P12 should be equally capable.  I'll look around at this next time I get a chance.
DSI Equipment: Poly Evolver Keyboard, Evolver desktop, Prophet 8,  Pro-2, OB6, P-12
 

https://Soundcloud.com/wavescape-1

Re: Prophet 12 Choir Patch
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2018, 11:26:09 AM »
I appreciate it, Soundquest. 

Re: Prophet 12 Choir Patch
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2018, 12:03:59 AM »
So, because the choir sound is a fairly simple one to design and requires only standard synthesis elements, starting with the quintessential waveshape, I'm going to conclude that the only DSI synthesizer that can produce an excellent choir patch is the Poly Evolver.  Do any of you P12 owners disagree?

How do you make a standard choir?    :P

Actually, I never really tried seriously on the P'12 because that's simply not the kind of sounds I program the most and there are very good built-in choir waveshapes in my old Korg Karma.

And I looked at your examples, sometimes, that's actually samples (the one of the Emulator is famous) and on some other machines, there are internal chorus effects, so I'm not sure of what does what.

Re: Prophet 12 Choir Patch
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2018, 07:04:46 AM »
I realize I gave a mixed bag of choir examples in the above post, especially with the Emulator.  But they provided audio samples of what I mean by a synthesized choir patch.  And I emphasize the word synthesized.  I'm not attempting to fool anyone into believing such a patch is an actual choir.  No, it's very much a synthesized version of the sound that I mean, and especially in the lower male bass/baritone range.

In general, a classic choir patch is no more difficult to design than a string patch.  The key is to start off with the right waveshape.  From there, it's an ordinary matter of carefully setting the oscillator tuning, filter, modulation, and envelope.  Plus, the keyboard range has to effect the cut off frequency.

I'm sorry to keep giving my own example, but it shows exactly what I'm after from the Prophet 12 and exactly what the Poly Evolver can do.  So, this patch is what I would need to achieve or ideally surpass on a P12:

https://youtu.be/pN904q28eQw?t=6m9s
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 07:31:14 AM by Sacred Synthesis »

Re: Prophet 12 Choir Patch
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2018, 09:44:38 AM »
I realize I gave a mixed bag of choir examples in the above post, especially with the Emulator.  But they provided audio samples of what I mean by a synthesized choir patch.  And I emphasize the word synthesized.  I'm not attempting to fool anyone into believing such a patch is an actual choir.  No, it's very much a synthesized version of the sound that I mean, and especially in the lower male bass/baritone range.

In general, a classic choir patch is no more difficult to design than a string patch.  The key is to start off with the right waveshape.  From there, it's an ordinary matter of carefully setting the oscillator tuning, filter, modulation, and envelope.  Plus, the keyboard range has to effect the cut off frequency.

I'm sorry to keep giving my own example, but it shows exactly what I'm after from the Prophet 12 and exactly what the Poly Evolver can do.  So, this patch is what I would need to achieve or ideally surpass on a P12:

https://youtu.be/pN904q28eQw?t=6m9s

Loud and clear - what you're after is a vocal formant waveshape that doesn't sound like a sample (more mellow). The Prophet-12 waveshapes are definitely more pronounced.
Sequential / DSI / Pioneer stuff: Prophet-12 desktop, Pro-2, AS-1, Prophet-600 Gligli, Prophet 2000

Re: Prophet 12 Choir Patch
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2018, 10:41:51 AM »
The Prophet 12 has two waveshapes that were presumably chosen for vocal/choir sounds.  One is called "Aahh," and the other "Oohh".  I worked with these for some time, but surprisingly couldn't create the sort of vocal quality that effortlessly leaps right out of the Poly Evolver.  Giving the benefit of the doubt to the P12, I've presumed and hoped that the weakness was in my effort, rather than in the instrument.  That's why I've posed this question here yet again.  It appears as if the P12 can produce a quality choir patch, that it has the specific waveshapes for doing so, but I can't find a single person - here or elsewhere - who has applied himself or herself to designing one.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 10:45:43 AM by Sacred Synthesis »

Re: Prophet 12 Choir Patch
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2018, 12:43:58 PM »
I would have created one if I had a P12.

I think that the same method I used (with much help from Martin M) to make a P08 choir will work well on the P12. The key is that the formants don't move much even as the pitch changes a lot, and the formant locations are based on the particular syllable, ah, oh, or whatever. I suspect the first requirement may make the built in wavetables of the P12 unsuitable for a choir.

Using oscillator sync with the slave oscillator at one of the format frequencies is helpful. Since you have four oscillators on P12 you should be able to get two formants right there. Then you have the low pass filter, which can give you an additional format for three total formants. That should sound a lot like a human voice.

Re: Prophet 12 Choir Patch
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2018, 01:13:14 PM »
I remember that thread, and if I recall correctly, the results were disappointing.  Do you have any audio samples?
« Last Edit: February 15, 2018, 08:54:58 AM by Sacred Synthesis »

Re: Prophet 12 Choir Patch
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2018, 12:03:12 AM »
I'm digging :P

Re: Prophet 12 Choir Patch
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2018, 02:04:45 PM »
A possible source of inspiration: just came across factory patch 4.27 TibetHoliday again. Layer A has that throaty formant character we're looking for...

Re: Prophet 12 Choir Patch
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2018, 06:47:29 PM »
Could you leave an audio sample?

Re: Prophet 12 Choir Patch
« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2018, 04:19:53 AM »
Could you leave an audio sample?

Hi,

i tried yesterday here are links to the requested patch https://soundcloud.com/martin2-2/tibetanholiday-b4p27-prophet-12
and me fooling around wtih my own patch. https://soundcloud.com/martin2-2/choirtest-prophet-12
The Tibetan has mostly Layer A active, my own is 2 Layers panned sometimes i soloed them.

Hope this helps,

Martin3