The Official DSI/Sequential Forum

KORG Prologue

Re: KORG Prologue
« Reply #40 on: January 18, 2018, 02:21:42 PM »
I wouldn't call it mediocre or a bad price, but you're not listing anything that makes it truly stand out either. What we're seeing here is an arms race, not the revolutionary step that some were expecting or hoping for.

Re: KORG Prologue
« Reply #41 on: January 18, 2018, 02:25:27 PM »
I wouldn't call it mediocre or a bad price, but you're not listing anything that makes it truly stand out either. What we're seeing here is an arms race, not the revolutionary step that some were expecting or hoping for.

It seems like some are grasping at straws to find something negative to say about it.  I'll say this, think of where we were 6-7 years ago in the analog market compared to where we are today....

Korg was the rompler King......now they have the arp, ms-20, a new flagship analog and a couple of affordable polys...
« Last Edit: January 18, 2018, 02:30:19 PM by John01W »

Re: KORG Prologue
« Reply #42 on: January 18, 2018, 02:38:02 PM »
After hearing some examples I quite like it. I was sceptical about 2-pole only but I think diversifies it a little from other offerings. There are other 4-pole polyphonic synths out there, but I can see people who considered this as their one and only analogue polyphonic synth might be disappointed for some reason.

If anything, the lack of aftertouch might actually be the biggest deal breaker for me personally.

For me it's the lack of identity.
Also a lot of 4 pole synths do have a 2 pole option I believe.

Well, agree to disagree on that. I think it has it's own identity for sure, definitely different enough from DSI or Behringer. If you like it or not is highly subjective of course. :)

Yeah I'd have to play one in person but I'm just saying for the price point and for what it is I'm not seeing exactly what's unique about it other than the User Osc3.

Is there currently another discrete vco synth out there with 16 voices badass effects and an analog compressor that bi-timbral?...the osc 3 is awesome looking so far.....at this price point I don't see anyone out there doing this....


and another thing, Korg is awesome with software updates/upgrades.....you'll get no lectures for asking for them either.


BTW, I'm not hearing "mediocre sound" either...it sounds amazing so far:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=791&v=KlaGeJs4LSs

No there is not another 16 voice VCO synth on the market....but there are a bunch with aftertouch...something you can't update in software.
Prophet 6, Oberheim Two Voice Pro, Moog Sub 37, Tempest Drum Computer, Roland V Piano, Vogel CMI Fairlight Pro App, Kurzweil K2600XS, Korg Kronos, Roland FA-08, Baldwin Upright Piano, Fender Stratocaster, Fender Telecaster, Gibson Chet Atkins SST, Jackson King V, Ibanez Jem, Roger Linn Adrenalinniii

Re: KORG Prologue
« Reply #43 on: January 18, 2018, 02:39:21 PM »
I wouldn't call it mediocre or a bad price, but you're not listing anything that makes it truly stand out either. What we're seeing here is an arms race, not the revolutionary step that some were expecting or hoping for.

It seems like some are grasping at straws to find something negative to say about it.  I'll say this, think of where we were 6-7 years ago in the analog market compared to where we are today....

Korg was the rompler King......now they have the arp, ms-20, a new flagship analog and a couple of affordable polys...

In 2018. Any synth, analog or digital that doesn't have aftertouch is inexcusable.
Prophet 6, Oberheim Two Voice Pro, Moog Sub 37, Tempest Drum Computer, Roland V Piano, Vogel CMI Fairlight Pro App, Kurzweil K2600XS, Korg Kronos, Roland FA-08, Baldwin Upright Piano, Fender Stratocaster, Fender Telecaster, Gibson Chet Atkins SST, Jackson King V, Ibanez Jem, Roger Linn Adrenalinniii

Re: KORG Prologue
« Reply #44 on: January 18, 2018, 02:44:46 PM »
You'll just have to wait for the Epilogue in a few years time for that addition.

Shaw

  • ***
  • 471
Re: KORG Prologue
« Reply #45 on: January 18, 2018, 02:45:11 PM »
I wouldn't call it mediocre or a bad price, but you're not listing anything that makes it truly stand out either. What we're seeing here is an arms race, not the revolutionary step that some were expecting or hoping for.

It seems like some are grasping at straws to find something negative to say about it.  I'll say this, think of where we were 6-7 years ago in the analog market compared to where we are today....

Korg was the rompler King......now they have the arp, ms-20, a new flagship analog and a couple of affordable polys...

In 2018. Any synth, analog or digital that doesn't have aftertouch is inexcusable.
+1
P12  |  P2  |  OB-6  |  Moog Voyager XL  |  Moog Minitaur

Re: KORG Prologue
« Reply #46 on: January 18, 2018, 02:45:29 PM »
I'm shocked that those are VCO's.  They sound to me like old DCO's.  Perhaps the recordings are only mediocre.

Well, that oscillator nut is very very hard to crack.
#!/bin/sh
cp -f $0 $HOME/.signature

Re: KORG Prologue
« Reply #47 on: January 18, 2018, 03:19:26 PM »
I wouldn't call it mediocre or a bad price, but you're not listing anything that makes it truly stand out either. What we're seeing here is an arms race, not the revolutionary step that some were expecting or hoping for.

It seems like some are grasping at straws to find something negative to say about it.  I'll say this, think of where we were 6-7 years ago in the analog market compared to where we are today....

Korg was the rompler King......now they have the arp, ms-20, a new flagship analog and a couple of affordable polys...

In 2018. Any synth, analog or digital that doesn't have aftertouch is inexcusable.
I don't disagree about aftertouch(though it's nice they have a pedal input to make up for that somewhat)...not enough for me to discount the synth, not even close.

chysn

  • ***
  • 886
Re: KORG Prologue
« Reply #48 on: January 18, 2018, 03:40:15 PM »
It sounds nice, and I like the look of it. I don't care about polysynths, but I'd like to review the oscillator API documentation. It would be cool to see what it's capable of. There aren't enough on-board controls for the digital oscillator, though, to make it really flexible.
DSI: DSM03; previously: Mopho Keyboard, Desktop Mopho, Evolver, DSM01
Hardware: Eurorack, Moog Little Phatty w/ CV Outs, Arturia MicroBrute, KMI QuNexus
Software: macOS, Ableton, MuseScore
Modular Grid: https://www.modulargrid.net/e/racks/view/354385
GitHub: https://github.com/chysn

Re: KORG Prologue
« Reply #49 on: January 18, 2018, 03:45:50 PM »
but I'd like to review the oscillator API documentation. It would be cool to see what it's capable of.

Certainly here too. Wonder if someone would consider porting Mutable Instruments oscillator and effects code over to the Prologue?
#!/bin/sh
cp -f $0 $HOME/.signature

chysn

  • ***
  • 886
Re: KORG Prologue
« Reply #50 on: January 18, 2018, 04:44:49 PM »
Certainly here too. Wonder if someone would consider porting Mutable Instruments oscillator and effects code over to the Prologue?

I'm only familiar with his eurorack code, which is neither portable (e.g., it's tightly bound to the controls and capabilities of the hardware that it runs on*) nor well-commented. We'll have to wait a couple months to see the Prologue's SDK to make any other guesses.

* Olivier knows the hardware really well, and pushes it to almost exactly what it's capable of doing.
DSI: DSM03; previously: Mopho Keyboard, Desktop Mopho, Evolver, DSM01
Hardware: Eurorack, Moog Little Phatty w/ CV Outs, Arturia MicroBrute, KMI QuNexus
Software: macOS, Ableton, MuseScore
Modular Grid: https://www.modulargrid.net/e/racks/view/354385
GitHub: https://github.com/chysn

Re: KORG Prologue
« Reply #51 on: January 18, 2018, 06:41:07 PM »
Sounds nice enough and will probably get a good uptake.  Don't see too many of the first 'logues on the 2nd hand market, which says something about the user base being happy with the instruments.

The raw oscillators are not bad.  Bi-timbrel is a welcome 'limitation' compared to the my fear that they were going to release paraphonic synth (why do I wind myself up so bad?)  A switchable filter slope would have been good.

Good onboard effects are welcome and expected from Korg really.  I don't think they were included to try to hide the oscillator quality, it's something that a flagship should have and they know that.  The display could have been a little better.  I'm not a fan of needing to use a computer to program stuff that could be done with few more lines and F buttons combined with the already present effects controls.  I've never needed a VU meter for an instrument compressor and feel it gives no information of any value whereas the wave display will at least help with FM and VPM programming.  Nice that Korg are telling us it's there and allowing us to control it to some extend I suppose, not like that chorus on some synths out of the 80's from a particular maker that are now classics.  I'm not dissing them for putting the compressor there, it's a nice thought, just don't think many will need to double check how much more beef they are getting if they turn up the gain and could have been a better spot for ratio and threshold cut-off knobs (as it's being touted as an LF comp).

Korg seem to be grooming a new generation with their new line of analogues.  They are all rather simple in terms of programming when compared to a DSI synth or any of Korg's flag-ship digital synths from the past and present.  I don't really get why they are as simple as they are, since every kid I've met getting into physical synthesisers is coming from a soft-synth background, though it also feels like the 'logues are being pushed at keyboard players/performers.  So if that is the case, why no aftertouch?  Mind boggling.

Then there is the non-traditional side of the machine that says no, this is a programmer's synth too.  By including a digital side that isn't VA/physical modelling and allowing for user waves, it brings features that were once niche to a wider user base.  Players who may have been scared of non-big brands now get to try modulating a sine wave with a home-made single-cycle wave.  Not going to get that out of a DM12.

Korg are not trying to sell to me this to me though.  They know I'm looking at the Prologue and thinking I want a modulation matrix/patchbay.
Korg have been nice to me over the years, they were my first synths and I learnt how to program on them.  If I didn't have them at the start, I'd not be looking for a little more on the modulations aspect of the Prologue.
I'm glad they are going to be a new generation's first synths too.  I remember what it felt like to need to look at the manual to know what the M1's envelopes extra bits were for on the day I got it, it's a humbling yet mind blowing experience.  Perhaps that is what Korg meant when they said it'd be "mind blowing"? (don't hate me for saying that, please!)

Re: KORG Prologue
« Reply #52 on: January 18, 2018, 07:24:28 PM »
I was really excited to hear about this.
First lets look at the positives...

1: Someone other than DSI is making a well built, true analogue synth with VCO's and bags of polyphony for under 2000! :)
2: it has 3 oscillators including one that can be user assigned.
3: It's bi-timbral
4: Voices can be layered and split, effectively giving you a 6 oscillators to craft a sound...nice. :)
5:Two displays (LED & OLED) for navigating the synth.
6: Analogue compressor on the 16 voice model
7: Two effects (1 mod effect, 1 delay/reverb) per voice
8: It's built using aluminium & oak and looks the business! :)

So far so good - but now for the negatives...

1: To get 16 voices you must buy the 5 octave synth - there's no way to upgrade an 8 voice model to 16 voices like there is with the REV2.
2: No aftertouch on the keyboard!!!! I mean ffs - really? That's an unforgivable omission on a supposedly 'flagship' analogue synth IMO.
3: Only 1 LFO. If I could change anything about my beloved Prophet 12 & Rev2 it'd be to have more LFO's and they already have 4, so offering only one LFO feels like a serious limitation to me - even my Studiologic Sledge has 2!
4: Despite being bi-timbral the Prologue has only a single stereo output, it does not have separate stereo outputs for each sound like the Rev2 & Prophet 12 do.
5: Voice spread and compressor only available on the more expensive 16 voice model.
6: Did I mention no aftertouch...I mean seriously...wtf!!! :( 
7: No auxiliary envelopes

It's such a shame that Korg chose to impose needless limitations on the Prologue.
Sure it'll still be a good synth, but with a little more thought it could have been a great one.
Include aftertouch, more LFO's, a couple of aux envelopes and separate stereo outputs for the voices would have made a world of difference IMO

As it is, I'd be thinking I've paid 1700 for this and there's not even any bloody aftertouch!!!

Good to see Korg throwing their hat in the ring though - over to you DSI! :)
« Last Edit: January 18, 2018, 07:39:56 PM by jazzygb1 »

Re: KORG Prologue
« Reply #53 on: January 18, 2018, 08:41:59 PM »
From the manual it seems it can only send/receive Sysex patch to the edit buffer and not to a selected program. The other option is a whole bank dump. Not flexible. Hoped this would be able to do MPE and/or assign number of voices per layer. Not clear the effects are per layer or applied to both layers. The manual stated THE SUB MIDI CHANNEL cannot use the same MIDI channel as the main voice. So that makes one wonder if each layer is fixed to 8 voices on the 16 (4 on the 8 ) and not possible to use a single layer with 16 ? There is no CC or NRPN provided at all for the 2 layers lets not even talk about globals and effects.  Feeling a bit hopeless with so many new products on the market now with crippled MIDI implementations and/or documentation. .More reasons for the REV2 and that compared with features the price is a couple of $100 too high. (anyhow no one cares anymore what things are priced versus costs as long as it's cool) With economies of scale and scope Korg has they must be able to produce at lower rates (yes of-course they have more total overhead but what gives).
« Last Edit: January 18, 2018, 09:08:02 PM by musicmaker »

Quai34

  • *
  • 37
  • FORMER PROFESSOR AT THE UNIVERSITY OF SAINT-BONIFA
Re: KORG Prologue
« Reply #54 on: January 18, 2018, 10:34:17 PM »
When I saw it, for me, it was "Well, they had just copied the P06" when they did the Minilogue is terms that they did a 4 VCo analog synth and now, they are just copying the Rev2...Fot the moment, and for the past few years, DSI has been leading in term of new "mind blowing synth" with huge capability at any price point, form 1500$ to 3000$...
Stage 2, NL2X+TC Pedals, Nord C2, Matrix 1000 X2, Proteus 2000, Prophet 12 & P08//Tetra+Eventide H9, TX802, Roland D50+PG1000, AX5080, AX keytar, Waldorf Streichfett, 2 Yorkville PS-10P, Bass: Ibanez SR1200+G&L L2000. Guitars: G&L Legacy HSS, Asat Blueboys, Asat Deluxe Savanna, Ibanez Artstar AS153

chysn

  • ***
  • 886
Re: KORG Prologue
« Reply #55 on: January 19, 2018, 12:43:59 AM »
It's kind of stunning how similar the Prologue's voice architecture is to that of the Moog Little Phatty.

Two VCOs with shape control, octave control, and sync, a VCF with drive and EG intensity (or amount), one simple LFO with pitch, filter, and shape destinations and intensity (amount). The Little Phatty's modulation buss is a little more interesting (with VCO2 as a potential modulation source, and a couple more destinations), and the Prologue's digital VCO really brings quite a bit of complexity to a voice. The Little Phatty also lacks aftertouch.

It's a perfectly serviceable architecture with a long heritage, and it sounds like it's implemented well here. It's meant to be a real musical instrument instead of a groundbreaking piece of technology. You know, except for that whole section where it's a groundbreaking piece of technology.
DSI: DSM03; previously: Mopho Keyboard, Desktop Mopho, Evolver, DSM01
Hardware: Eurorack, Moog Little Phatty w/ CV Outs, Arturia MicroBrute, KMI QuNexus
Software: macOS, Ableton, MuseScore
Modular Grid: https://www.modulargrid.net/e/racks/view/354385
GitHub: https://github.com/chysn

Re: KORG Prologue
« Reply #56 on: January 19, 2018, 03:20:26 AM »
From the manual it seems it can only send/receive Sysex patch to the edit buffer and not to a selected program. The other option is a whole bank dump. Not flexible. Hoped this would be able to do MPE and/or assign number of voices per layer. Not clear the effects are per layer or applied to both layers. The manual stated THE SUB MIDI CHANNEL cannot use the same MIDI channel as the main voice. So that makes one wonder if each layer is fixed to 8 voices on the 16 (4 on the 8 ) and not possible to use a single layer with 16 ? There is no CC or NRPN provided at all for the 2 layers lets not even talk about globals and effects.  Feeling a bit hopeless with so many new products on the market now with crippled MIDI implementations and/or documentation. .More reasons for the REV2 and that compared with features the price is a couple of $100 too high. (anyhow no one cares anymore what things are priced versus costs as long as it's cool) With economies of scale and scope Korg has they must be able to produce at lower rates (yes of-course they have more total overhead but what gives).

But I'd bet that you can hook it up to a DAW, set Local Off, and it will just workI was thinking about this earlier as I rolled through the REV2 forum posts; perhaps Korg has a better grasp of their target market within that price band?
Sequential / DSI / Pioneer stuff: Prophet-12 desktop, Pro-2, AS-1, Prophet-600 Gligli, Prophet 2000

Re: KORG Prologue
« Reply #57 on: January 19, 2018, 10:27:32 AM »
What I'm wondering is how much the user base is going to get out of this machine... To get the most evolved sounds, time must be spent tweaking through software. It would have been nice if they had unveiled it along with the app to see/hear some of its full potential. One would hope they're planning on at least previewing the SDK at NAMM, although it seems like they're not ready to do that.

Re: KORG Prologue
« Reply #58 on: January 19, 2018, 10:37:40 AM »
What I'm wondering is how much the user base is going to get out of this machine... To get the most evolved sounds, time must be spent tweaking through software. It would have been nice if they had unveiled it along with the app to see/hear some of its full potential. One would hope they're planning on at least previewing the SDK at NAMM, although it seems like they're not ready to do that.

The app/editor is supposed to be released in spring. Even the manual is still vague about the according possibilities, referring to a keyword/link on Korg's website that doesn't exist yet.

From what I've read to far, I assume that the greatest potential is going to be there for people who are able to code themselves. For them, it'll also be possible to design and add their own effects.
Ableton Live 9 Suite & Push 2 (macOS) | Arturia BeatStep Pro | DSI Pro 2 | KMI QuNexus | Korg Volca Beats | Moog MF-104M Analog Delay | Moog Minitaur | Moog Model 15 App | Moog Sub 37 Tribute Edition | Sequential Prophet-6

eXode

  • **
  • 217
Re: KORG Prologue
« Reply #59 on: January 19, 2018, 11:08:39 AM »
I think KORG are going for a combination of accessibility as with regards to the front panel (it's quite similar to i.e. Little Phatty, structure wise), with some extras for people who can be bothered to dive into it.

I read up a little more on the MULTI engine, and it has a couple of FM type modes (and others) where the shape controls the mod depth, but you can also press shift+shape to change the ratio of the modulator. The manual also revealed that there's actually a mod AD envelope under "Button 7" that is dedicated to the MULTI ENGINE. The MULTI ENGINE can also be routed post filter if desired which means that there are a lot of extra timbres available, especially if you layer sounds.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2018, 11:19:10 AM by eXode »