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Sending CC and NRPN Messages to Prophet 12

Sending CC and NRPN Messages to Prophet 12
« on: December 07, 2015, 12:29:02 PM »
Hi all,

First, the problem:

I'm trying to setup a Novation Midi Remote to send parameter control messages to my P12 Module.  I've studied the manual and there are about 120 CC# controller messages I can send which is great...I use my Novation to send CC messages frequently.  Unfortunately, these CC# controllers do not include any access to the LFO's, Auxiliary Envelope's, and assorted other Oscillator parameters.  These parameters are controllable via NRPN messages.  From what I've learned, there are limitations in what NRPN#'s I can send from the Novation.  Due to a limitation of only being able to set the LSB of the NRPN message to 127 or less, I basically can only send NRPN#'s 0 to 127, 256 to 383, and 512 to 639 which is about half of the possible parameters under NRPN control.

My questions:

1)  I notice CC#98 and 99 allow the sending of NRPN LSB and NRPN MSB values.  Am I correct that this provides a way of controlling NRPN parameters through the use of CC messages?  If so, can anyone give me an example of how this works?

2)  Is there anyone out there who's been sending NRPN's to the P12?  Can you tell me how you're doing it and what the MSB and LSB values are that you send?

Thanks!
Dennis  ;)
Mutiny in Jonestown, Progressive Rock Since 1987:

Website: https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown
Bandcamp: https://mutinyinjonestown.bandcamp.com/

Some of My Other Music Including P12 Recordings lives at: https://soundcloud.com/dennis-m-366105599

Re: Sending CC and NRPN Messages to Prophet 12
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2015, 01:31:16 PM »
98 and 99 are standard as are msb and lsb being only 7 bits, so 127 max.

I would give this a read and it will then all make sense: http://www.philrees.co.uk/nrpnq.htm

Re: Sending CC and NRPN Messages to Prophet 12
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2015, 04:03:50 PM »
98 and 99 are standard as are msb and lsb being only 7 bits, so 127 max.

I would give this a read and it will then all make sense: http://www.philrees.co.uk/nrpnq.htm

Thanks, great article!  After reading this I realized I was working out the msb and lsb at 8 bits not 7.  Found the following explanation of how to properly calculate the 7 bit msb & lsb for any integer at http://artsites.ucsc.edu/EMS/music/tech_background/MIDI/NRPNs.html which states:

"The numbers have to be broken into 7 bit chunks. That's done by dividing (integer) by 128 for the MSB and rem or % 128 for the LSB. For the NRPN number of 149 you get MSB of 1 and LSB of 21."

Assuming the above method of calculating MSB & LSB is correct, the thing that's still odd about this is the Prophet12 manual identifies NRPN#'s of 0 to 1011 and on pg 61 clearly states the MSB value should never be greater than 2.  That's a contradiction though as the highest integer that converts to an MSB of < 3 is 383...anything higher than that converts to an MSB of 3 or higher...unless I'm using the wrong formula :D
Mutiny in Jonestown, Progressive Rock Since 1987:

Website: https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown
Bandcamp: https://mutinyinjonestown.bandcamp.com/

Some of My Other Music Including P12 Recordings lives at: https://soundcloud.com/dennis-m-366105599

Re: Sending CC and NRPN Messages to Prophet 12
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2015, 08:55:53 PM »
Here is an excellent Blog about this posted by Pym itself:

http://tetradev.blogspot.com/2010/03/nrpns-part-1-basics.html


Hummm, about the maximum value of two I would guess this only apply to the value range as it is 0-255 max.

LA
« Last Edit: December 07, 2015, 09:06:15 PM by LA Keys »

Re: Sending CC and NRPN Messages to Prophet 12
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2015, 09:27:46 AM »

Hummm, about the maximum value of two I would guess this only apply to the value range as it is 0-255 max.

LA

Ahh...good point.  I hope you're correct since that's the only way it makes any sense as 383 is the highest integer to still keep an MSB of <=2.  Either way, my P12 is arriving today so I'll try this out in the next few days and report back  ;)
Mutiny in Jonestown, Progressive Rock Since 1987:

Website: https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown
Bandcamp: https://mutinyinjonestown.bandcamp.com/

Some of My Other Music Including P12 Recordings lives at: https://soundcloud.com/dennis-m-366105599

Re: Sending CC and NRPN Messages to Prophet 12
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2015, 09:55:34 AM »
To be honest controlling the module from the front panel is a breeze so you may not even need your other controller.

I got the P12 module and then the P2 keyboard and I find myself also programming the P2 the same way as I program the P12 ignoring all the lovely knobs!

Re: Sending CC and NRPN Messages to Prophet 12
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2015, 02:58:24 PM »
To be honest controlling the module from the front panel is a breeze so you may not even need your other controller.

I got the P12 module and then the P2 keyboard and I find myself also programming the P2 the same way as I program the P12 ignoring all the lovely knobs!

Well, the sealed box is setting right next to me so I'll be giving it a tryout soon  8)
Mutiny in Jonestown, Progressive Rock Since 1987:

Website: https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown
Bandcamp: https://mutinyinjonestown.bandcamp.com/

Some of My Other Music Including P12 Recordings lives at: https://soundcloud.com/dennis-m-366105599

Re: Sending CC and NRPN Messages to Prophet 12
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2015, 12:00:42 AM »
Nice one :)

You might want to put the current beta on as well (1.2.26), it gives you linear FM and also control over how many voices are used in unison mode and a host of other fixes. you can fine it here: http://dsiforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=4630

One problem is that the "Audio Out" mod source is not working in this beta so if this is important to you it may be worth waiting until DSI release the 1.3 version that I'm sure will have a fix in for this. Current guess for this timescale is NAMM in January.


Re: Sending CC and NRPN Messages to Prophet 12
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2015, 09:15:31 AM »
Nice one :)

You might want to put the current beta on as well (1.2.26), it gives you linear FM and also control over how many voices are used in unison mode and a host of other fixes. you can fine it here: http://dsiforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=4630

One problem is that the "Audio Out" mod source is not working in this beta so if this is important to you it may be worth waiting until DSI release the 1.3 version that I'm sure will have a fix in for this. Current guess for this timescale is NAMM in January.

Thanks for the info!  Your timing is perfect as I woke up this morning and the 1st thing I thought was, "Is 1.1.1 really the most up to date OS?"  ;)

Also an interesting note, since the P12 will receive CC or NRPN I can only use the Korg Taktile49 (which doesn't send NRPN) or Novation RemoteZero (which sends both) to do my remote midi control.  The P12 manual states in multiple places that NRPN is the preferred method and allows greater accuracy of control so I'll try the NRPN route first from the Novation.  This is fun  8)
Mutiny in Jonestown, Progressive Rock Since 1987:

Website: https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown
Bandcamp: https://mutinyinjonestown.bandcamp.com/

Some of My Other Music Including P12 Recordings lives at: https://soundcloud.com/dennis-m-366105599

Re: Sending CC and NRPN Messages to Prophet 12
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2015, 10:53:04 AM »
Yes you can use CC only, for controlling things.

For me in a "live playing" type setting this would be fine but for programming patches maybe not perfect as the resolution of the control is limited, I suppose comes down to giving it a try and seeing how you get on.


Re: Sending CC and NRPN Messages to Prophet 12
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2015, 12:40:41 PM »
Yes you can use CC only, for controlling things.

For me in a "live playing" type setting this would be fine but for programming patches maybe not perfect as the resolution of the control is limited, I suppose comes down to giving it a try and seeing how you get on.

Ya, a main reason I'm going with NRPN as my 1st choice is the CC messages don't allow any remote control of LFO parameters which NRPN does - though as I think about it I could probably get around this by sending CC messages to the Slider1 & Slider2 Position & Pressure controllers then making those 4 sources to the LFO destinations I want to control in the modulation table ;)
Mutiny in Jonestown, Progressive Rock Since 1987:

Website: https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown
Bandcamp: https://mutinyinjonestown.bandcamp.com/

Some of My Other Music Including P12 Recordings lives at: https://soundcloud.com/dennis-m-366105599

Re: Sending CC and NRPN Messages to Prophet 12
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2015, 03:40:09 PM »
So I have the NRPN codes figured out (Midi-Ox has a very handy decimal to NRPN MSB/LSB converter) and can send them to the Prophet12.  Problem now is, I can only send NRPN effectively from the step encoders on my Novation :facepalm:  When I send the NRPN from sliders or rotary knobs, the value on the P12 only toggles between the min and max (0 or 127 instead of 0 to 127).  Any ideas?

Thanks!
Mutiny in Jonestown, Progressive Rock Since 1987:

Website: https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown
Bandcamp: https://mutinyinjonestown.bandcamp.com/

Some of My Other Music Including P12 Recordings lives at: https://soundcloud.com/dennis-m-366105599

Re: Sending CC and NRPN Messages to Prophet 12
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2015, 05:47:12 PM »
So I have the NRPN codes figured out (Midi-Ox has a very handy decimal to NRPN MSB/LSB converter) and can send them to the Prophet12.  Problem now is, I can only send NRPN effectively from the step encoders on my Novation :facepalm:  When I send the NRPN from sliders or rotary knobs, the value on the P12 only toggles between the min and max (0 or 127 instead of 0 to 127).  Any ideas?

Thanks!

I'll post my own follow up for anyone else wondering about this.  Just spent an hour on a tech chat with a guy from Novation and it appears the only reason the encoders work is they have a 14 bit NRPN option.  The sliders, buttons and rotaries only send the 3 CC# version of NRPN not the 14 bit 4 CC# version the P12 appears to require  ;) 

Looks like I'll be looking for a new knob/button/slider midi controller for my P12.
Mutiny in Jonestown, Progressive Rock Since 1987:

Website: https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown
Bandcamp: https://mutinyinjonestown.bandcamp.com/

Some of My Other Music Including P12 Recordings lives at: https://soundcloud.com/dennis-m-366105599

Re: Sending CC and NRPN Messages to Prophet 12
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2015, 11:12:08 PM »
Thats a shame, seems weird that the controller only handles 7 bit NRPNS I wonder why they did it like that!

Re: Sending CC and NRPN Messages to Prophet 12
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2015, 08:29:21 AM »
Thats a shame, seems weird that the controller only handles 7 bit NRPNS I wonder why they did it like that!

It is strange.  Why would you design the step encoder knobs to send 14 bit but not the rotary knobs, buttons, and sliders?  Even stranger, the rotaries/buttons/sliders all have the option to send NRPN...just not 14 bit NRPN - which defeats the purpose of NRPN in the first place which is to give greater accuracy and a 0-16k sweep resolution instead of the CC 0..127 sweep range. 

Oh well...I ordered a Behringer BCR2000 which gives me 32 14 bit NRPN knobs to play with so life is good  ;)
Mutiny in Jonestown, Progressive Rock Since 1987:

Website: https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown
Bandcamp: https://mutinyinjonestown.bandcamp.com/

Some of My Other Music Including P12 Recordings lives at: https://soundcloud.com/dennis-m-366105599

Re: Sending CC and NRPN Messages to Prophet 12
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2018, 04:55:56 AM »
I know it's years later, but you might want to look into Max MSP with javascript.  It has all the flexibility to accomplish this, and more.  I'm working on a similar project now, sending NRPN's to an OB-6.  Definitely hard to find relevant source material