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Next New DSI Instrument

Next New DSI Instrument
« on: November 18, 2015, 11:28:30 AM »
This is the place to dream about what you'd like to see DSI make next.

Personally, I'm still awaiting "the big one," the sort of large-scale polyphonic bi-timbral synthesizer, strong in the fundamentals of synthesis but not loaded down with additional features, that would be a worthy replacement for the Prophet '08.  In fact, the Prophet '08 is a great place to start.  Add two more oscillators, a high pass filter, longer envelope times, possibly a few more voices, onboard delay, and I'd be in synthesizer paradise.  I'm fine with eliminating the arpeggiator and sequencer, if that will help to reduce the price tag.  Make this a real keyboard player's instrument. 

I'm hoping DSI will some day make an instrument that will allow me to move on from either the Poly Evolver or the Prophet '08, something that doesn't suffer from the common modern ailments of thin-sounding oscillators or filters, too few voices, or too short a keyboard.  And of course, make both keyboard and knobby module versions of the instrument.  I'm still hoping.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2015, 12:30:33 PM by Sacred Synthesis »

Re: Next New DSI Instrument
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2015, 12:26:15 PM »
I'd be with Razmo and would like to see something like an updated Wavestation/VS with Waldorf/PPG-like wavetables and the option to create your own wavetables as well as adding samples. Add the Evolver way of doing wave sequences (which I think slightly resembles the way the Animator is used in the Modal Electronics' 002 and 001) and lots of morphing options. Realtime recording of the vector stick movements for automation would be nice as well. The only analog components I'd like to see in such an instrument are the filters of the Pro 2 - at least there should be a state variable filter - and an analog distortion, as it works beautifully with a digital front end. Adding granular synthesis as an option would be nice as well. Basically, I would like to see a mainly digital synth that offers as many manipulation options as possible in order to work with wavetables and sample content, or - to word it differently - a synth that picks up on where parts of digital synthesis left in the 1990s. Make it multi-timbral and add four individual outs for each of the four extreme vector positions.
Ableton Live 9 Suite & Push 2 (macOS) | Arturia BeatStep Pro | DSI Pro 2 | KMI QuNexus | Korg Volca Beats | Moog MF-104M Analog Delay | Moog Minitaur | Moog Model 15 App | Moog Sub 37 Tribute Edition | Sequential Prophet-6

Razmo

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Re: Next New DSI Instrument
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2015, 12:51:04 PM »
Well... I don't have to add my wishes I can see... pretty much agree with the above idear :)

but... not to be a spoilsport, but I either read or heard in a video, where Dave himself talked about how they come by new products, and he said that they go around the office talking about what they want to do next... and then the word "We do not do user base surveys here!" came along... so basicaly, they don't create what the users want, but what they want themselves, so I guess we can only "inspire" them here  ;)

Re: Next New DSI Instrument
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2015, 01:21:01 PM »
not to be a spoilsport, but I either read or heard in a video, where Dave himself talked about how they come by new products, and he said that they go around the office talking about what they want to do next... and then the word "We do not do user base surveys here!" came along... so basicaly, they don't create what the users want, but what they want themselves, so I guess we can only "inspire" them here  ;)

I guess the users mostly start to come in when it's about firmware improvements (no matter how long that takes in the end). At least that's the field the support usually reacts very open to - at least in my experience.

As for basic design ideas: Yes, I imagine a lot of brainstorming to be going on. The ideas won't be coming out of nowhere though. It'll be in parts what Dave and his colleagues always wanted to do, current trends and developments in general (Eurorack, available types of synthesis, the status quo of current building parts, etc.), and maybe a bit of user feedback too. One doesn't necessarily have to perform strategic market research for that. Ideas can be triggered by just scanning through a couple of forums or comments, just as it happens in non-virtual environments and discussions.

My thought is just that you can only go so far with certain types of synthesis. The current flagships, the Prophet 12 and the Prophet-6, are pretty much perfect for what they are. You can't really add a whole lot in that direction without killing the according products or by making the prices go through the roof. So I would assume before we see (improved or extended) successors to those, we'd rather see DSI focussing on a new type of instrument and/or synthesis. They might still design a couple of offsprings (just like the Mopho has been to the Prophet '08) here and there to attract buyers that can't spend a fortune immediately.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2015, 01:26:53 PM by Paul Dither »
Ableton Live 9 Suite & Push 2 (macOS) | Arturia BeatStep Pro | DSI Pro 2 | KMI QuNexus | Korg Volca Beats | Moog MF-104M Analog Delay | Moog Minitaur | Moog Model 15 App | Moog Sub 37 Tribute Edition | Sequential Prophet-6

Re: Next New DSI Instrument
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2015, 02:29:53 PM »
I am probably going to repeat myself here but main wishes are:

  • Compact desktop module with two/four/six voices.
  • Four analog oscillators with variable shape, PWM and pairwise sync.
  • Four digital oscillators with wavetables, user waveshapes and phase modulation with a (ratio, amount, feedback) type modulator.
  • Audio rate CV calculation speeds means more CV operations makes sense such as adding a (function, argument) filter to the modulation slots with functions such as identity, linear/exponential slew and lowpass/bandpass/highpass filters.
  • More than one noise modulation source for modulating with multiple out-of-phase filtered/slewed noises.
  • A discrete state variable multi-mode filter similar to the combination of the filters in Modal Electronics 002/001 and 008 voice architectures complete with resonance color and filter feedback parameters.
  • More than four lfos/envelopes and more than sixteen modulation slots.
  • Pro 2 style sequencer or better.
  • One voice per channel multi-timbral though sixteen channel dynamic voice assignment would be cool too.
  • Prophet/Tetra style two sound layers.
  • Prophet 12 style digital delays and tuned feedback.

What I am after is essentially a best-of-all-so-far kind of module. The Oberheim Xpander is a good starting point. In other words a module with a usable and minimal OLED display based user interface and very expressive voices inside.

Really like the idea of granular or sample oscillators too. Agree that strong fundamentals are essential.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2015, 02:36:16 PM by dslsynth »
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Re: Next New DSI Instrument
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2015, 07:27:44 AM »
My suggestion is really simple, and I think that it would solve the problem os many users.

Take a Prophet 12, kill two digital oscillators, add two P6-like VCOs and discreet filter for each voice, add PRO2's sequencer and CV options, add BBD delay emulation, 10 voices polyphony. That's it. I'd be glad to sell some stuff to pay for it. It's the master DSI Frankenstein!

A new mono with mixed features of what they already have would awesome too. A Pro2, less 1 digital oscillator, + 2 analog VCO (even 1 VCO + sub), a tweak to Pro2's filter. Great machine!
Active > Elektron Analog Four and Analog Rytm | Korg Minilogue, Volca Sample and Volca Bass | Moog Little Phatty | MI Ambika and Anushri.
Inactive > DSI Prophet 08 PE | Moog Sub Phatty | Novation Bass Station 2 and Mininova

Re: Next New DSI Instrument
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2015, 09:35:25 AM »
I'd really like something very similar to the PEK in case my PEK ever dies!    No sequencer needed.   More of a keyboard player synth as Sacred Synthesis had stated.    Any ability to import waveforms more easily would be welcome.

DSI Equipment: Poly Evolver Keyboard, Prophet 8,  Pro-2, OB6
 

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Re: Next New DSI Instrument
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2015, 06:41:37 PM »
I'd like to see something like a cross between the Pro 2 and Tetra. Small form factor, properly functioning multitimbral mode and no sequencer. I'd like to be able to use it as 4 monosynths, 1/3 voice split mode, or 4 voice poly mode. And software would be cool if it was made by LITERALLY anyone else but Soundtower.

If it had a more compact UI like the Prophet 12 Desktop I wouldn't mind. I would buy the hell out of that!

Re: Next New DSI Instrument
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2015, 05:40:46 AM »
And software would be cool if it was made by LITERALLY anyone else but Soundtower.

Hehe! Me guess anyone can make unstable software if they want to do so. Making quality products for the price tags of editor software takes way more resources than the market wants to pay.

Agree on Tetra as being a good model for a future multi-timbral polyphonic DSI instrument.
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Re: Next New DSI Instrument
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2015, 08:16:22 AM »
Prophet T8000

Prophet T8 Keyboard Concept (weighted, wooden PolyAT, velocity, etc.) with all the best guts from the Prophet 08 (multiple LFO routing and modulation destinations), Prophet 6 (LP/HP Filter & Osc), Pro 2 (CV in/out and modulation - oh! make it bi-timbral with a Pro 2 section using split!) and might as well add a Prophet 12 section for layering, Prophet5/T8 envelopes...

I do believe I've given myself the vapors! ;D

DSI Prophet '08; Sequential P6; SCI Pro-One

Razmo

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Re: Next New DSI Instrument
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2015, 03:37:29 PM »
I must say... I'd really like to see a studio-module, that sort of take the idear of multiple sounds of the Tempest, and puts them into this desktop module with pads.

I'm thinking about a device that has presets made up of 8 sounds (so that the sounds can be individualy controlled by it's own MIDI channel), each sound dedicated to a single pad.

Each sound should be digitaly generated a bit like the voice architecture of the P12, but with an added sample oscillator.

In general I see this as an externaly controlled percussion/FX module... one that is minded toward studio rats like me, that want total MIDI control. The reason I only wrote 8 pads is that I would like for each and every pad to have it's OWN individual voice, with the same filters as in the Pro 2 for ultimate sound sculpting control, and having more than eight such voices might be overkill in price... maybe even 6 voices could do the trick to keep price down.

The intention is to avoid voice allocations, and voice stealing... each pad on it's own voice, and having a seperate output in addition to a mixed main out.

the main use for it would be drums, percussion and FX sounds.

But I want to take the sampling into a rather different direction than the way samples is normaly handled.... I'd like for each Pad to have it's own short sample... maybe just 1 second of sound per pad, but it should be loopable... this inspire for creative use, but the fact that every sample should be short is because I want the sample TO BE PART OF THE PRESET! ... not some pool of samples stored in memory or the like... the sample must be part of the actual preset, and also be part of the SysEx structure of a voice.... with todays USB connection speed, it would not pose any problem driving a mere 44.100 samples along with a dump.... and the advantage is self explanatory... people would be much more inclined to make their own samples, you would be able to forget about sample banks when distributing your presets etc...

Such a device would be cool for percussion, FX, short samples and stuff like that... I'd REALLY like to see such a device...


Re: Next New DSI Instrument
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2015, 03:51:20 PM »
But I want to take the sampling into a rather different direction than the way samples is normaly handled.... I'd like for each Pad to have it's own short sample... maybe just 1 second of sound per pad, but it should be loopable... this inspire for creative use, but the fact that every sample should be short is because I want the sample TO BE PART OF THE PRESET! ... not some pool of samples stored in memory or the like... the sample must be part of the actual preset, and also be part of the SysEx structure of a voice.... with todays USB connection speed, it would not pose any problem driving a mere 44.100 samples along with a dump.... and the advantage is self explanatory... people would be much more inclined to make their own samples, you would be able to forget about sample banks when distributing your presets etc...

Such a device would be cool for percussion, FX, short samples and stuff like that... I'd REALLY like to see such a device...

What do you think about Ableton's Push 2?
Ableton Live 9 Suite & Push 2 (macOS) | Arturia BeatStep Pro | DSI Pro 2 | KMI QuNexus | Korg Volca Beats | Moog MF-104M Analog Delay | Moog Minitaur | Moog Model 15 App | Moog Sub 37 Tribute Edition | Sequential Prophet-6

Razmo

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Re: Next New DSI Instrument
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2015, 04:06:27 PM »
But I want to take the sampling into a rather different direction than the way samples is normaly handled.... I'd like for each Pad to have it's own short sample... maybe just 1 second of sound per pad, but it should be loopable... this inspire for creative use, but the fact that every sample should be short is because I want the sample TO BE PART OF THE PRESET! ... not some pool of samples stored in memory or the like... the sample must be part of the actual preset, and also be part of the SysEx structure of a voice.... with todays USB connection speed, it would not pose any problem driving a mere 44.100 samples along with a dump.... and the advantage is self explanatory... people would be much more inclined to make their own samples, you would be able to forget about sample banks when distributing your presets etc...

Such a device would be cool for percussion, FX, short samples and stuff like that... I'd REALLY like to see such a device...

What do you think about Ableton's Push 2?

I'm having problems figuring out if this is just a front end for computer software, or a selfcontained instrument? ... if it's self contained it's interresting... if not I have no interrest in it, since I do not use computer softsynths, and don't want to :)

But with that said... it still lack what I want... integration af samples into presets in the MIDI, and probably most important; the analog part of the voice...

Don'r get me wrong, the Push2 is probably REALLY cool for many people, but what I'm looking for is a bit different.

Basicaly what I want is just a new Tempest minded for studio use, but with the voice architecture of the PRO 2 and added user sample capabilities at preset level... probably never going to happen though... but that's what I'd like to see.

Re: Next New DSI Instrument
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2015, 04:16:11 PM »
I'm having problems figuring out if this is just a front end for computer software, or a selfcontained instrument? ... if it's self contained it's interresting... if not I have no interrest in it, since I do not use computer softsynths, and don't want to :)

But with that said... it still lack what I want... integration af samples into presets in the MIDI, and probably most important; the analog part of the voice...

Don'r get me wrong, the Push2 is probably REALLY cool for many people, but what I'm looking for is a bit different.

Basicaly what I want is just a new Tempest minded for studio use, but with the voice architecture of the PRO 2 and added user sample capabilities at preset level... probably never going to happen though... but that's what I'd like to see.

Gotcha. Well, the Push controller is of course not self-contained, but only working in conjunction with Ableton Live. Basically, I'm only addressing Ableton's Sampler "Simpler" and how it is integrated into Push 2. There's a slicing function that lets you automatically map parts of one sample to the pads (depending on the resolution). That's why I brought up the question. I don't own the Push 2 controller, but have tested one at an Ableton event and I have to say that the workflow is pretty amazing. One of the coolest devices I can currently think of when it comes to working with samples. No need for soft synths. All the other aspects are not covered the way you'd like them to be, though. It was just an idea, because Push 2 makes the processing of samples a really tactile experience.
Ableton Live 9 Suite & Push 2 (macOS) | Arturia BeatStep Pro | DSI Pro 2 | KMI QuNexus | Korg Volca Beats | Moog MF-104M Analog Delay | Moog Minitaur | Moog Model 15 App | Moog Sub 37 Tribute Edition | Sequential Prophet-6

Razmo

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Re: Next New DSI Instrument
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2015, 04:30:20 PM »
I'm having problems figuring out if this is just a front end for computer software, or a selfcontained instrument? ... if it's self contained it's interresting... if not I have no interrest in it, since I do not use computer softsynths, and don't want to :)

But with that said... it still lack what I want... integration af samples into presets in the MIDI, and probably most important; the analog part of the voice...

Don'r get me wrong, the Push2 is probably REALLY cool for many people, but what I'm looking for is a bit different.

Basicaly what I want is just a new Tempest minded for studio use, but with the voice architecture of the PRO 2 and added user sample capabilities at preset level... probably never going to happen though... but that's what I'd like to see.

Gotcha. Well, the Push controller is of course not self-contained, but only working in conjunction with Ableton Live. Basically, I'm only addressing Ableton's Sampler "Simpler" and how it is integrated into Push 2. There's a slicing function that lets you automatically map parts of one sample to the pads (depending on the resolution). That's why I brought up the question. I don't own the Push 2 controller, but have tested one at an Ableton event and I have to say that the workflow is pretty amazing. One of the coolest devices I can currently think of when it comes to working with samples. No need for soft synths. All the other aspects are not covered the way you'd like them to be, though. It was just an idea, because Push 2 makes the processing of samples a really tactile experience.

I can certainly see the advantage of Push2 ... It reminds me a bit of all the other sample grooveboxes... and NI Machine and a lot of AKAI stuff...

In essence... seen from a performance view, what I want to accomplish is using a device with preferably 8-16 pads for triggering sound FX made with real synthesis (hence the Pro2 architecture), but with added sample abilities for more flexibility in firing off sounds that are too complex to handle with synthesis (accoustic stuff etc. like percussion and looped snippets of sounds like rain, fire, water running and other looped textures) ... but I want to sculpt these sounds with analog filters and VCA....

I often see electronic musicians that play live, have some sort af device available with pads, that they use to fire off sound FX in a performance... usualy it's just some sample playback device... I'd just like to expand on that with a synth engine per pad, and some pressure sensitivity to the pads, to make the sounds more adjustable in real time for less static sound.

Basicaly the Tempest is such a device... it's just way too convoluted in it's interface, it shares sounds with few voices, it has terrible MIDI communication features and generaly have way too many features (all the sequencing stuff could easily be left out!)... I'd like it more simple, better integrated with a studio (MIDI).
« Last Edit: December 09, 2015, 04:33:04 PM by Razmo »

Re: Next New DSI Instrument
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2015, 04:58:23 PM »
In essence... seen from a performance view, what I want to accomplish is using a device with preferably 8-16 pads for triggering sound FX made with real synthesis (hence the Pro2 architecture), but with added sample abilities for more flexibility in firing off sounds that are too complex to handle with synthesis (accoustic stuff etc. like percussion and looped snippets of sounds like rain, fire, water running and other looped textures) ... but I want to sculpt these sounds with analog filters and VCA....

I often see electronic musicians that play live, have some sort af device available with pads, that they use to fire off sound FX in a performance... usualy it's just some sample playback device... I'd just like to expand on that with a synth engine per pad, and some pressure sensitivity to the pads, to make the sounds more adjustable in real time for less static sound.

Basicaly the Tempest is such a device... it's just way too convoluted in it's interface, it shares sounds with few voices, it has terrible MIDI communication features and generaly have way too many features (all the sequencing stuff could easily be left out!)... I'd like it more simple, better integrated with a studio (MIDI).

Adjusting individual pressure sensivities per pad (as well as individual settings for envelopes, filters, etc.) is possible with Push 2 - and pretty quickly too.

So I guess you basically want a Push 2 as a self-contained box with analog filters and enhanced MIDI functionality.
Ableton Live 9 Suite & Push 2 (macOS) | Arturia BeatStep Pro | DSI Pro 2 | KMI QuNexus | Korg Volca Beats | Moog MF-104M Analog Delay | Moog Minitaur | Moog Model 15 App | Moog Sub 37 Tribute Edition | Sequential Prophet-6

Re: Next New DSI Instrument
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2015, 08:44:52 PM »
Prophet T8000

Prophet T8 Keyboard Concept (weighted, wooden PolyAT, velocity, etc.) with all the best guts from the Prophet 08 (multiple LFO routing and modulation destinations), Prophet 6 (LP/HP Filter & Osc), Pro 2 (CV in/out and modulation - oh! make it bi-timbral with a Pro 2 section using split!) and might as well add a Prophet 12 section for layering, Prophet5/T8 envelopes...

I do believe I've given myself the vapors! ;D

That keybed was awesome. But with all of the non-traditional controllers out there, do you think it's really worth the time and effort to incorporate a hammer-action keybed in a high-performance synth? I'd rather have a long-throw (TP 60-style) Fatar organ keybed, which would get closer to the T8 throw (even if the sensors might not be as sophisticated, and, lacking poly aftertouch).
Dave S: Prophet-600 Gligli, Prophet 2000, Pro-2, AS-1 | Tom O: SEM, Matrix-1000 | Dave R: Emax SE, UltraProteus, Proteus 2000, ESI-32, XL-7 | Ensoniq TS-10 | Modal 002R-8, CraftSynth | Waldorf Pulse 2, Streichfett | Roland Kiwi-106S, Kiwi-3P, Kiwi-8P, MKS-30 | Korg Volca Beats

Steven Morris

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Re: Next New DSI Instrument
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2015, 01:42:12 PM »
I know this is totally out of left field, but I've been hoping to see a synth that combines the ergonomics of a lot of the classic subtractive synths but uses some different, much less common, forms of synthesis.

For example, DSI seem to have been adding some BBD's to their most recent synthesizers. I think it would be absolutely amazing if a four-voice Karplus-Strong synthesizer was developed out of this with excellent tracking. The 'character' section in conjunction with numerous envelopes would be an amazing addition to this. I imagine a dedicated, or set of dedicated character envelopes would be beneficial to this section as well. Of course a couple of analog oscillators would help tremendously with designing sounds as well as with appealing to a wider audience. Of course multiple noise-sources would be necessary for this kind of synthesis. They could call it the Pro KS!

Out of this, all kinds of products, including a 1V/O BBD Eurorack module could be introduced ;)

One can always dream I suppose...

Re: Next New DSI Instrument
« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2015, 07:20:02 AM »
One thing that I would love to see in a flagship keyboard is a better keybed, e.g., Fatar TP/8S (Waldorf Wave, Access Virus, Kawai K5000s, and, uh, John Bowen's Solaris) rather then the TP/9S currently used (and quite popular, also used in my Waldorf Q).

I'm not sure that a 76-key model makes commercial sense (in spite of the additional panel space), except in pricey, custom models (as Waldorf did with the Wave, as an option) -  so 61-key beds would be perfectly fine.

Poly aftertouch would be an entirely different proposition and would likely require a different approach to the chassis (read: heavier).
« Last Edit: December 18, 2015, 07:21:34 AM by DavidDever »
Dave S: Prophet-600 Gligli, Prophet 2000, Pro-2, AS-1 | Tom O: SEM, Matrix-1000 | Dave R: Emax SE, UltraProteus, Proteus 2000, ESI-32, XL-7 | Ensoniq TS-10 | Modal 002R-8, CraftSynth | Waldorf Pulse 2, Streichfett | Roland Kiwi-106S, Kiwi-3P, Kiwi-8P, MKS-30 | Korg Volca Beats

Razmo

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Re: Next New DSI Instrument
« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2015, 03:25:28 AM »
I would like to see a drummachine meant for studio use via a DAW... Preferably something that is expandable.

I'm thinking a kind of desktop module, with a single pad on it for triggering the sound, and a small display above it, and a few single knobs for data entry and editing, to keep it minimal... and then some smart way of "clicking" one such device onto the side of the next, letting you chain up to 16 of them (one for each MIDI channel).

The point is that a single unit should be relatively cost effective, being a single drumvoice in itself, but allow for more voices as needed. This way you could do with just one box, if you're the layer recording type of musician, or more if you're the live performance type of musician... a win-win for everyone... even the poor musician who can get access to the technology without breaking the bank, but eventualy add on it when the funds are there.

I imagine the engine being something like this:

One oscillator from the P6 (or another design, it just needs to be STABLE! with a huge pitch range and ability to reset it's phase at note-on, preferably even choosing the degree to start at for full control of the "click" in the transient).

One Pro2 digital oscillator complete with character section.

One sample oscillator with access to some form of user sample memory. (must have both single-shot, and looped sample capabilities)

Now follow these three oscillators with the Pro2's dual filters... and make the oscillators individualy routable to these two filters, or around them, so that you can decide exacly what oscillators goes thru them.

Now follow the dual filters with an analog distortion circuit, where you again can route the output of the two filters into, or around the distortion curcuit as you see fit.

Finish the signal path with the FX block of the P6, with the ability to feed it from both right after the distortion curcuit, but also from the direct output of the two digital oscillators (these would be in the digital domain at that point anyway, so no need for DACs).

Make sure that the audio rate mod-matrix can modulate between both the Pro2 oscillator and the sample oscillator for many more sonic options. Also make a single ADC path along the analog signal path to allow for feedback.

Make the whole thing playable as a synth as well, adding polyphony as you add more modules.

Keep the price approx. at what the Mopho Desktop was... some corners may have to be cut, I don't know, but something like that :)

Point is... I really want a single drumvoice device, tailored for drum synthesis, with both analog and digital capabilities and added sampled percussion feature... but coupled with analog filters and distortion (filters must be capable of both LP, BP and HP, and each oscillator be routable to these for added flexibility).. topped with digital FX is important too... Envelopes must be fast, and have dedicated curve parameters to allow for precise adjustment of the response curves.. .this is CRUCIAL! ... the reason for the routable oscillators is that to make convincing snares and other percussive sounds, you have to have control over at least two elements of the sound... Snares for example has a "skin" sound, and a "noise" sound that needs to be shaped individualy.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2015, 03:36:07 AM by Razmo »